2013 elk recomendations

[Apatkelley]

This is all about money. Game and Fish claim they are balancing out the herd and all that crap but every unit that starts to produce more elk they just raise the tag numbers and kill them. Take 3C for example. After the Rodeo Chediski fire the next 8 years were great for harvesting big bulls. But slowly, year by year the G and F raised the tag numbers and slowly killed the elk off. What's hurting a lot of units is the COW hunts. Kill all the cows and you won't get more elk. Its insane how many hunts they have. If the elk survives the early archery they have to make it through the early rifle. If they survive that they have to make it through it junior hunts. If they make it through that they have to get through the late archery hunts. If they survive that they have to make it through the late rifle hunts. With each one of these hunts having hundreds of tags! But as the Game and Fish get more and more greedy they will raise tag numbers AND start charging more for the tags. They claim it's all about just getting out there and people don't mind killing animals. They just want to have the experience. Sadly, here in a couple years it's going to be nearly impossible to have a decent hunt with so few animals and so many people in certain areas. But G and F will continue to make their money because everyone will keep putting in hoping for that coveted tag. So why would G and F stop now? More money they make the happier they are. They know how it works. . and sadly there isn't anything we can do about it. AZ Game and Fish is a joke and will always be a joke.

BC this is the product of a department who is trying to limit the amount of funding they accept from the feds. Federal $ comes with a whole bunch of strings attached and I for one prefer not to answer to those bureaucrats if it can be helped. The simple truth is that it takes A LOT of $ to run the kind of department that AZGFD has. In order to achieve the same $ through a tag price increase the price of an elk tag would have to be raised roughly $20. Tag price increases are permanent and require a more difficult process to get approved, so therefore it is easier to simply increase the number of tags offered. My personal feeling is that hunting is already expensive, and I feel for guys who have 2 or 3 kids applying for 3-4 species every year, plus trying to outfit them with gear, fuel for trips, etc. so if a few more tags in units that are meeting objectives prevents raising tag prices, I think its the right move.

 

If we look at tag numbers over the past several years the recommendations this year show a trend towards what the total tag #'s were at the end of the last decade. If these recommendations are accepted we would still be 1500 or so tags shy of the 2008 - 2010 totals, and there have been plenty of big bulls harvested since that time, so to say that AZGFD is a joke is a bit harsh. I grew up here in AZ but as an adult have lived in Utah and Idaho and hunted those states plus MT and WY, I will say this, AZGFD is one of the very best F&G agencies in the West. Look no further than ID, where public land is abundant, habitat is excellent and the state's population is a fraction of AZ's and you will see how bad things can be. There are more B&C bulls harvested in a single year in AZ than in a decade there, despite all the advantages listed above. AZ is a pretty unique place where we can hunt trophy coues units during the rut archery every single year, bear and lion tags are over the counter with liberal seasons, you can kill 2 javelina every year if you want, Spring turkey tags can be drawn every couple of years and archery is over the counter, and the elk hunting is without comparison, period. There are archery bull hunts that can be drawn every single year if that is what you want to do, or there are opportunities to wait it out and experience an elk hunter's paradise after years of applying, and every scenario in-between exists; hunts with tons of tags, hunts with very few tags, hunts in the rut, hunts late in the year, cow hunts, youth hunts, muzzleloader only units, archery only units, units that have tons of road access and wilderness only units. Late rifle bull tags can be drawn every 2-3 years if that's your thing, cow hunts very early in the year and close to the rut typically only take a couple of years to draw if you prefer that. I think the state has done a remarkable job of balancing quality and opportunity and I think we owe them a thanks. We in the state of Arizona have a truly unique opportunity and we are blessed.

 

Am I disappointed about the tag increases? Yes. Do I think the AZGFD is a joke, nope, I find a lot more humor in the unrealistic expectations we as a hunting community continually expect them to meet. I know this opinion is likely to be unpopular, but dog gone-it I think its time someone spoke up and gave AZGFD some credit.

 

I agree, I'm in Idaho now and I don't think I've ever seen so much awesome looking country with nothing in it. I never thought I'd say it, but I also really miss the bonous point system we had in AZ. Here I can put in for the controlled hunts year after year and never get drawn. At least with the BP system AZ is using, if I wait long enough I can get the tag I really want. I think AZGFD is doing a good job......I've been able to get drawn and kill nice deer in several units across the state for the past 30 years. As mentioned above, they must be doing something right.

[bonecollector777]

I agree with some points you made there. But disagree with many also. I don't buy this whole thing that they need all this money just because they are avoiding the federal money. G&F are greedy. I'm basing my judgments off of the units I hunt. 3A/3C and 4A/4B. And also from what I am seeing in unit 27. Every year 3C had bulls coming out that scored 400 or somewhere close. Ask these poor hunters who hunted the bull hunts this year what's the biggest bull they saw. I know guys with early rifle 3C tags, supposedly one of the most coveted elk tags in northern Arizona that were shooting 350" bulls and were satisfied because that's all they could find. That is a respectable bull yes, but when in the years past it was almost unheard of if a rifle hunter killed a bull smaller then 380. I agree it's still very easy to come out here and kill an elk. But when you have 5 point 300 inch bulls as the herd bulls you know there is a problem. It's one thing if this isn't supposed to be a trophy unit but after the fire the elk started showing up by the hundreds. So what did G and F do? Raised the tags by the hundreds and have now killed every decent sized bull in the unit. If your happy with just getting a tag and enjoying being in the forest with hundreds of other hunters right next to you I think G and F is doing a great job. 3C is supposedly turning into a "trophy" mule deer unit. So they recommend having 100 tags and guess how many tags are in the regs? 200! and wait! Let's throw in a juniors hunt in that unit so we can kill every deer that survived the general hunt. If I'm not mistaken this is the only "trophy" unit in the state with a juniors hunt.That's just 3C. Don't even try and talk about 4B. G and F has been bragging this year because some guy randomly sat a tank and killed a 400 bull in there. So now they somehow are doing a great job in the unit and are "managing" like ever before. Give me a break. . You could walk/drive in 4B for days and never see a deer or turkey. Yeah there are a few elk but good luck finding one that's a decent six point. Oh yeah I forgot to talk about turkey over here in 3C. Turkey numbers were up like we had never seen over here about 3-4 years ago. So what does G and F do? Make it an over the counter juniors hunt! And kill nearly every turkey in the place! But do they cut back on the tags? NO. .just keep raising them and keep killing the poor birds that survived the massacre the few years past. Unit 27 is going to be the same way. The next couple years there are going to be a lot of nice bulls come out of there. And year after year after year G and F will raise the tag numbers and kill them off like they did in 3C. I give it 5-6 years before it's all used up. I read an article in American Hunter magazine talking about the number of B&C animals taken from each state the past two decades. I tried finding it on the internet but couldn't locate it. From 1990-2000 Arizona was producing more B&C entries for almost every animal. If not #1 they were top 3. From 2000-2010 Arizona isn't in the top 5 for any animal. Utah is DESTROYING in the elk department. My point here is that while there are still animals out there to hunt, there aren't near as many trophy animals in Arizona that there were 10 years ago. You can go kill a 5 point bull in any western state. But that's not what Arizona is known for. Arizona is known for being one of the top states for pulling out B&C animals. But they are slowly slipping down the rankings and becoming just like any other state. Like the Idaho example you gave. I don't think Arizona is far from that. It's just sad to see the Game and Fish killing off the majority of trophy animals just to make a buck. AZGFD deserves no credit other than being greedy and worthless in my eyes.

[Str8Shot]

This is all about money. Game and Fish claim they are balancing out the herd and all that crap but every unit that starts to produce more elk they just raise the tag numbers and kill them. Take 3C for example. After the Rodeo Chediski fire the next 8 years were great for harvesting big bulls. But slowly, year by year the G and F raised the tag numbers and slowly killed the elk off. What's hurting a lot of units is the COW hunts. Kill all the cows and you won't get more elk. Its insane how many hunts they have. If the elk survives the early archery they have to make it through the early rifle. If they survive that they have to make it through it junior hunts. If they make it through that they have to get through the late archery hunts. If they survive that they have to make it through the late rifle hunts. With each one of these hunts having hundreds of tags! But as the Game and Fish get more and more greedy they will raise tag numbers AND start charging more for the tags. They claim it's all about just getting out there and people don't mind killing animals. They just want to have the experience. Sadly, here in a couple years it's going to be nearly impossible to have a decent hunt with so few animals and so many people in certain areas. But G and F will continue to make their money because everyone will keep putting in hoping for that coveted tag. So why would G and F stop now? More money they make the happier they are. They know how it works. . and sadly there isn't anything we can do about it. AZ Game and Fish is a joke and will always be a joke.

 

I am laughing my butt off, at your statement, that all the good bulls, cows and the statement " killed the elk off" in 3c ... 3c still has an excellent population of elk and I nor the many hunters I know that hunt that unit year after year continue to see quality and numbers of Elk including this year ... if anything the herd has gotten stronger since the fire even with the hunting harvest of the last 8 years, but if you feel they are all gone please negate those hunts as choices on your application so I may finally get a Bull tag for the hunt and unit I want

 

p.s. the increase in trophy hunters in these units all looking to harvest 400+ class Bulls has just as much an impact on the herd as the number of tags... if one thing can be learned, we can learn it from the White Mountain Apache Tribe, that too many cows and rags horns not being culled from the herd effects the numbers of big bulls in the long run.... They seen the impact many years back and have been offering numerous opportunities to hunters to balance out the cows and rag horns since to improve the herds... keep in mind this helps in 3c since many move back and forth over the fence lne

[bonecollector777]

This is all about money. Game and Fish claim they are balancing out the herd and all that crap but every unit that starts to produce more elk they just raise the tag numbers and kill them. Take 3C for example. After the Rodeo Chediski fire the next 8 years were great for harvesting big bulls. But slowly, year by year the G and F raised the tag numbers and slowly killed the elk off. What's hurting a lot of units is the COW hunts. Kill all the cows and you won't get more elk. Its insane how many hunts they have. If the elk survives the early archery they have to make it through the early rifle. If they survive that they have to make it through it junior hunts. If they make it through that they have to get through the late archery hunts. If they survive that they have to make it through the late rifle hunts. With each one of these hunts having hundreds of tags! But as the Game and Fish get more and more greedy they will raise tag numbers AND start charging more for the tags. They claim it's all about just getting out there and people don't mind killing animals. They just want to have the experience. Sadly, here in a couple years it's going to be nearly impossible to have a decent hunt with so few animals and so many people in certain areas. But G and F will continue to make their money because everyone will keep putting in hoping for that coveted tag. So why would G and F stop now? More money they make the happier they are. They know how it works. . and sadly there isn't anything we can do about it. AZ Game and Fish is a joke and will always be a joke.

 

I am laughing my butt off, at your statement, that all the good bulls, cows and the statement " killed the elk off" in 3c ... 3c still has an excellent population of elk and I nor the many hunters I know that hunt that unit year after year continue to see quality and numbers of Elk including this year ... if anything the herd has gotten stronger since the fire even with the hunting harvest of the last 8 years, but if you feel they are all gone please negate those hunts as choices on your application so I may finally get a Bull tag for the hunt and unit I want

 

p.s. the increase in trophy hunters in these units all looking to harvest 400+ class Bulls has just as much an impact on the herd as the number of tags... if one thing can be learned, we can learn it from the White Mountain Apache Tribe, that too many cows and rags horns not being culled from the herd effects the numbers of big bulls in the long run.... They seen the impact many years back and have been offering numerous opportunities to hunters to balance out the cows and rag horns since to improve the herds... keep in mind this helps in 3c since many move back and forth over the fence lne

 

Wow, I'm not sure what area of 3C you have been hunting in but I'd love to know where you're finding herds that are stronger now than 5 years ago. I do agree with you that 3C does have a decent population of elk. Of small raghorn bulls and some cows. Plenty of those if that's what your after. And you will never have to worry about me putting in for a 3C elk tag anytime in the near future. It's all yours! You're welcome

3C is or atleast was expected to produce 400+" bulls year after year. Which it did for many years until now. As stated before if your looking to get out and find just any elk or small six point 3C is the place for you. Can't think of a better unit. But if your looking for BIG bulls 3C is no longer what it used to be and cannot produce the trophy bulls year after year. Let's take what you said and go a little deeper. Game and Fish say too many raghorns and cows hurt the herd. Ok, let's say that's true. One thing they forgot to do is limit how many of the big bulls were killed. Instead they said hey lets kill more cows, raghorns, and big bulls than needed, we will make thousands of dollars more AND we will have a unit full of below average bulls! Good job guys, you did it! Let me know what size bull you kill when you finally get the 3C tag you have been hoping for. If it's over 360 I'll pay for it to be mounted

[AverageJoe]

Have you seen all the trophy bulls taken over the last few years in az? Do you think if the trophy bulls keep being taken that big bulls will continue to exist? A lot of the hunters in az, the majority of the hunters, would rather have the opportunity to hunt rather than a quality hunt. That majority does not visit or have even heard of coueswhitetail.com. They just want to go out, have a good time with friends and family, and have the chance to shoot any bull or cow. They could care less about size. For them which i do believe are the majority of elk hunters, game and fish are doing a great job. The ones who want to get away and truly hunt a trophy might be getting the bad end of the deal but then again game and fish cant please everyone. They might as well please the majority.

 

For those that keep bashing game and fish because you feel they have not done a good job but what would you have them do? Cut tags in half to please the trophy hunters while the ones who do it for meat and to teach others how to hunt and bring new people to the hunting community get the shaft? Is it not more important in the long run to ensure people continue to hunt and have the opportunity to hunt? If you stop seeing elk and the numbers drop drastically i would agree they are doing a bad job. So far that is not the case in az. The trophy quality may go down but that can rebound from year to year and who knows how they will manage what in the years to come.

 

Think about the overall hunting community instead of your own desires (although everyone is entitled to their own feelings). I shot a late archery raghorn this year and am more proud of that bull than my big ones. That was a true trophy in mine and others eyes. Its not all about size. Hope i didnt offend anyone, just trying to help folks see a different perspective.

[Willyhunts2]

Didn't they have that state wide survey? My understanding was most people who stopped hunting was because they were fed up with never drawing a tag. Most people wanted the opportunity to go hunt every now and then. So they have those hunts and still have trophy hunts for those guys. If you want a trophy hunt you still have the opportunity to do that. If you want to hunt elk every year, you can do that also. To me it looks like they are trying to cater to everyone while still trying to fund their department.

[savagman]

I have to agree with Flatlander. We don't all hunt for the same reason and a quality hunt means different things to different people. If everything is managed for trophy "quality" then others miss out on the opportunity to hunt. Quality, to me, right now, is spending time in the woods with family. I might miss my window of opportunity getting my kids involved if they have to wait 5+ years to draw a Jr. tag. I think they do a pretty good job balancing each of our wants along with sound management.

 

As to the number of hunters in the field, there are some areas that it is very difficult to get away from people. Not every unit but some it seems like it just can't be done. But we seem to be talking out of both sides of our mouths. Complain about travel management (road closures) and then complain about there being a road on every ridge and in every canyon.

 

Just like there are different hunts for different definitions of quality there are units that afford easy road access and those with few roads and rough country. Pick your poison and enjoy it.

[CouesFanatic]

350 tags in unit 1 is a joke. there goes another great unit, I hate seeing the quality of this state going down this fast. Thanks for killing another great unit.

[Big Browns]

G&F added 495 tags to Unit 22. I guess opportunity now means "raghorn opportunity". Unbelievable!!!!! Obama is trying to take our guns and G&F is killing off all the mature bulls!

[bonecollector777]

350 tags in unit 1 is a joke. there goes another great unit, I hate seeing the quality of this state going down this fast. Thanks for killing another great unit.

G&F added 495 tags to Unit 22. I guess opportunity now means "raghorn opportunity". Unbelievable!!!!! Obama is trying to take our guns and G&F is killing off all the mature bulls!

Agreed guys.. they are going to destroy any quality bulls that are in those units. Any unit that starts to have more quality elk they make sure to quickly destroy them. I agree with some things said above about having the experience of getting out with the family and just enjoying the hunt. Someone earlier said in AZ there are units for people to trophy hunt and units to just hunt and kill any elk. The problems G and F aren't keeping it that way! Keep the units not known for big bulls and let every blow joe that wants to go hunt there if they are just looking to get out and enjoy walking along side hundreds of other people. But leave the units that are already trophy units TROPHY units. Don't raise the tags and kill every decent bull in the forest. That's the problem right there. G and F don't really care about quality animals, they care about MONEY in their pockets. Therefore the don't care if they raise tag numbers in 22, 1, 27, 3C and all the other units because more tags = more money. As said before they are worthless and only deserve credit for being really good at making more money for themselves and ruining trophy units.

[coues krazy]

Got to agree, even unit 9 doesnt produce the big bulls it used to. The problem is there are no other states that have a real chance at drawing in your lifetime. Just a few years ago 6a and 4b ect you still had a good shot at shooting a very good bull. Those units are bottom of the barrel along with many more. Yep, I get it, we need to get more hunters in the field. IMO the kids that dont hunt now,probably wont hunt later. Cell phones and video games have taken the place of the love for the outdoors. You guys live in the valley, what do you see. I see a bunch of little whimpy crybaby kids that need instant gratifacation. They get it through technology. Hunting just not cool anymore to this new breed of youth. Hip HOP and the street style are what matters. Kids cant even tye there own shoes anymore. Anyway, just my opinion of whats wrong. just look around you.We have lost the youth....

[coues krazy]

BTW sorry for the rant

[elkrack]

Share it with the Department

• 
  
• Nov. 30, Tucson regional office, 555 N. Greasewood Road
  
• Dec. 4, Pinetop regional office, 2878 E. White Mountain Blvd.
  
• Dec. 4, Mesa regional office, 7200 E. University Drive
  
• Dec. 5, Flagstaff regional office, 3500 S. Lake Mary Road
  
• Dec. 5, Kingman regional office, 5325 N. Stockton Hill Road
  
• Dec. 5, Yuma regional office, 9140 E. 28th St.
  

The final elk and pronghorn hunt recommendations will be presented to the Arizona Game and Fish Commission for consideration during its Saturday, Dec. 8 meeting in Phoenix at the Game and Fish headquarters at 5000 W. Carefree Highway, Phoenix (1.5 miles west of I-17

[bowhunter81]

Is it just me or did anyone else see more big bulls killed this year than in recent memory? More hunters in the field isn't always fun, but I don't know one hunter that I know complained they drew a tag ever. Game and fish will never get credit for pleasing everyone, its impossible. I would absolutely think that they would know a whole lot more about managing wildlife than we do. Don't forget that all our dollars go back to managing wildlife with that tag increases. Putting more hunters in the field is a good thing. Not everyone is looking for a trophy bull, I would say about half just want a decent opportunity. There are plenty of elk out there and obviously still some giants being taken and will continue to be taken if there's another good rain. I would say the game and fish absolutely want you to be successful! Saying that the don't want you to be is a hoax. They provide all the info, tag numbers, and managed wildlife. Just my 2 cents

[bonecollector777]

Is it just me or did anyone else see more big bulls killed this year than in recent memory? More hunters in the field isn't always fun, but I don't know one hunter that I know complained they drew a tag ever. Game and fish will never get credit for pleasing everyone, its impossible. I would absolutely think that they would know a whole lot more about managing wildlife than we do. Don't forget that all our dollars go back to managing wildlife with that tag increases. Putting more hunters in the field is a good thing. Not everyone is looking for a trophy bull, I would say about half just want a decent opportunity. There are plenty of elk out there and obviously still some giants being taken and will continue to be taken if there's another good rain. I would say the game and fish absolutely want you to be successful! Saying that the don't want you to be is a hoax. They provide all the info, tag numbers, and managed wildlife. Just my 2 cents

You must not have talked to many hunters this year who drew a tag in 4B. Most of those big bulls came from 27 and unit 1. Definitely not 3C. 4B had the exception of 1 400 bull. Which hasn't happened in a long time. Our money from the tag increases goes straight to their pockets and they claim to be using it to manage wildlife. The most insane thing to me is what they are doing to unit 4B and 3C. 4B has about a total of about 200 elk in it. You could drive for years out there and not see a living thing. Yet somehow they raised tags by 25 this year to 175. That's just the archery tags. Game and fish only wants us to be successful in the draw so they can get their money. Other than that they don't care if we kill anything. We're kind of going in circles here in this post but I know of many more people in this state that are unhappy with AZGFD than those that are happy. We are fed up with these greedy money hungry people. Whether you're going to agree with me or not start asking around and see what they guys up here in the white mountains think about AZGFD. I promise you're not going to find many happy hunters. Yeah they are still going to hunt and put up with it because that's the only thing we can do if we still want to hunt. I'm not sure why they even have these public input meetings. They don't care what we say. They want the money and they are going to get it. It's been shown in the past when everyone at the meeting disagrees with tag numbers in a unit and then the regs come out with more tags than they recommended anyway. Alright all done. Hope it changes someday! But I fear we're screwed and it's only gonna get worse.