California Southern Mule Deer

[Big Browns]

I'm planning a hunt this fall for Southern Mule Deer in southern California. I'm trying to find information on the subspecies. Does anyone know if any of the record books keep records for the Southern Mule Deer? Everyone I know says there antlers are a lot smaller than the Desert Mule Deer. I would like to know if that is because of hunting pressure or if that's the norm for the area. Anyone hunt deer in southern California(San Diego County)?

[muleybowhunter]

what zone or unit are you looking at? i have taken a muley hybrid out of d15 and his antlers where the size of a coues deer, but had the body of a muley. my take on antler size is they never get to grow up to become mature deer, there are so many tags and a ton of lions.

[Big Browns]

I am looking at D16. I assumed the same thing. With the number of tags it's hard for them to grow up, but when I looked at the size of deer being taken on private land they still had small antlers. Even the large deer were still a lot smaller than a typical az mule deer. I think it's due to the type of subspecies, but would like to know for sure. Finding good information on this subspecies is a lot harder than I thought it would be.

[muleybowhunter]

I am looking at D16. I assumed the same thing. With the number of tags it's hard for them to grow up, but when I looked at the size of deer being taken on private land they still had small antlers. Even the large deer were still a lot smaller than a typical az mule deer. I think it's due to the type of subspecies, but would like to know for sure. Finding good information on this subspecies is a lot harder than I thought it would be.

 

yes they are smaller, some have crossbread with blacktails, the one i took had a body of a muley and the antlers of a blacktail.

[tmcguire]

I hunt deer in D16. In general, most of the bucks in Socal are forkys. There are some bucks that show a blacktail/hybrid antler structure, but the majority never get a 2nd branch like is typical with a Muley. (of course there are always exceptions). The forky below is my buck from 2 years ago and honestly is probably a top 10-15% buck for SoCal. The other two I posted below are about the largest bucks I've seen taken in D16 -- I blocked out the hunters faces since I do not know them.

[Big Browns]

That's a great Buck for a Democrat, Hillary loving, Jenner loving California resident

[tmcguire]

I "identify" as a Floridian LOL... Out of curiosity, why are you coming from AZ to hunt deer in southern CA? Ducks I could see, but deer? You know WE come over there normally.

 

Juries still out on what we call our deer here, BlackMules or MuleTails... I have heard the term Southern Mule Deer used by biologists, but I do not believe it is a recognized subspecies for records.

[BOHNTR]

The California Bowmen Hunters (CBH) record book will have all the records off the three separate species in the state; Mule Deer, Columbian Blacktail, and the Pacific Hybrid. The zones you are describing fall within the Pacific Hybrid boundary.

 

http://cbhbgc.azurewebsites.net/Records/PacificHybridDeer

[Big Browns]

Great info, thx!

[452b264]

I "identify" as a Floridian LOL... Out of curiosity, why are you coming from AZ to hunt deer in southern CA? Ducks I could see, but deer? You know WE come over there normally.

 

Juries still out on what we call our deer here, BlackMules or MuleTails... I have heard the term Southern Mule Deer used by biologists, but I do not believe it is a recognized subspecies for records.

He fell off a ladder while working on his house and hit his head.

[hoghntr]

Yes Adam did you not see the 1 post from Cali guy that came to Yuma and smoked that monster? Cali is going too far so stop just short of it

[billrquimby]

Guys:

Many “experts” and the revered reference work “Mammal Species of the World” will say there are ten subspecies of mule deer (Odocoileus heminonus), and divide these ten into two “groups.”

Mule deer group:
Rocky Mountain mule deer (O.h. hemionus) Western and central North America
Inyo mule deer (O.h. inyoensis) California, Sierra Nevada

California mule deer (O.h. californicus)
Desert mule deer (O.h. eremicus) Lower Colorado River; NW Mexico, SE California, Arizona
Southern mule deer (O.h. fuliginatus) southernmost California and Baja California
Cedros/Cerros Island mule deer (O.h. cerrosensis)
Peninsula mule deer (O.h. peninsulae) Baja California Sur
Tiburon Island mule deer (O.h. sheldoni) Tiburon Island
Black-tailed deer group:
Columbia black-tailed deer (O.h. columbianus) Pacific NW, Northern California
Sitka black-tailed deer (O.h. sitkensis) coastal area and islands off British Columbia, Alaska

Others lump the Inyo, Cedros Island and Tiburon Island subspecies with desert mule deer or the Peninsula mule deer, reducing the list to just seven subspecies. A very few also will expand the above list to eleven by including a desert subspecies called O.h. crooki before most taxonomists declared it an “invalid” race. Even fewer will say all subspecies are invalid and say all are simply "mule deer."

At any rate, depending upon the “expert,” California is generally recognized as having from five to six mule deer subspecies (including the Columbia blacktail). Some record books will reduce that to just three or four by lumping subspecies.

 

When I was the SCI record book’s editor many years ago, the record book committee lumped multiple subspecies when there were too few entries to create a separate category for each. The California Bowmen apparently did just that by creating a category in its record book that it calls "Pacific Hybrid." There is no such subspecies, of course.

Incidentally, being small and having a black tail does not necessarily mean a deer in California is a “Columbia blacktail” because many California mule deer also have these features.

 

Bill Quimby

[AverageJoe]

During my Marine Corps days i used to head up to Lake Cuyamaca most weekends and catch catfish and trout. The lake and roads to the lake were heavy with deer and turkey. I used to see many large 4 point muleys near the lake but their body's were about a third smaller than typical mule deer.

[billrquimby]

If that lake is near San Diego, which I think it is, chances are very good that the deer you were seeing were southern mule deer. Below is something I found on the 'Net.

 

Columbian black-tailed deer are the most populous subspecies of deer in California. Habitat ranges from the coastal mountains of Oregon to near Santa Barbara, within the western slope of the Cascade-Sierra Nevada range and along the Sierra Nevada Foothills.

California mule deer are found along the west slope of the Sierra Nevada mountains. They are second most populous.

Rocky Mountain mule deer rank third in population and are the largest mule deer subspecies in California. They are found in Lassen, Shasta, Siskiyou and Modoc counties.

Southern mule deer are found in Orange, Riverside and San Diego Counties.

Inyo mule deer are found in Inyo, Kern and Mono counties.

Desert mule deer are found in Imperial, Riverside and San Bernardino counties as well as SW and southern Arizona and northern Sonora, Mexico.

 

Bill Quimby

[tmcguire]

Guess what I'm curious about is do the deer know the county boundaries? If you're hunting D16, you're essentially hunting an area that 4 supposed deer subspecies converge. "Pacific Hybrid" is probably the best way I've heard them described. Not knocking anyone, I'm honestly curious how these different subspecies are assigned. Can anyone list out identifying characteristics between a California, Southern, Desert, Peninsular, etc. Mule Deer? Or are the only differences apparent in a blood test.