WhtMtnHunter Report post Posted April 12, 2018 I totally understand about being upset not being able to hunt deer because you have fewer tags. The Humane Societies end goal is to stop hunting all together! Lion hunting is a foot in the door if you ban lion hunting deer and Elk numbers go down pretty soon it's easy to convince the non-hunting public that there are not enough animals to be able to hunt therefore we should stop all hunting. I definitely do not want to demonized the well-off. I am not one of them however I aspire to be one. Just because a guy can afford to go hunting and pump more money into wildlife and conservation than I ever will be able to does not make him a bad guy in my opinion. If the same guy that pays for a tag wants to give my state a few million dollars over the course of 10 years or so for wildlife and habitat more power to them. there are no guarantees in life, obviously we cannot guarantee that they won't ask for more tags we can't guarantee that this will make a difference, I can guarantee that if we do absolutely nothing but bicker at each other we will do nothing to help wildlife and the future of hunting in Arizona. I don't ee the harm at all in giving up a few tags that I will still have an opportunity to obtain, in order to have a voice against the anti hunters. How do we know they will be back?? Liberal ideas never die. They are very good at keeping focus and making their objective reality. Agree 100% that these groups think that somehow by allowing predators to thrive, nature will balance itself out without any help. They always fail to realize the impact that man has had on the environment which is why it makes no sense. This whole discussion has made me realize what a tightrope the average hunter walks in society. On the left we have groups that constantly assault our ability to own guns, to hunt game, and to manage our wildlife via the ballot box. On the right we have groups that are dedicated to selling our public land and hunting tags for quick profit. It's really upsetting that just a few weeks after we rid ourselves of the left, that the right rears up and attacks from their angle. As far as this proposal I try to look a few years ahead and figure out possible outcomes. This proposal is based on the pure conjecture that HSUS is back in 2 years. Let's assume this proposal goes through and look at possible outcomes in 2 years. There is no way to say that there is `100% certainty that HSUS will be back in 2 years. There is also no way to say that chance is 0%. Personally I think the odds of them coming back are in the 20-25% range. You might say 75% so let's just assume it is a 50/50 chance. There are 3 possible outcomes at this point. 1. HSUS decides not to pursue the ban again in 2 years. This would render the proposal useless and will have been a waste of hundreds of trophy tags and millions of dollars. 2. HSUS decides to try again and wins this time. This would render the proposal useless and will have been a waste of hundreds of trophy tags and millions of dollars. 3. HSUS decides to try again and loses. This would perhaps shine a positive light on the proposal. So there ultimately is a 66% (2 in 3, actually closer to 75% when you factor in the original 50/50 odds)chance that this proposal will have absolutely no meaningful difference in any outcome in 2 years. 1 in 3 odds it will have "some" impact. I don't like those odds when the tradeoff is hundreds of tags and millions of dollars, and the permanent entrenchment of AZSFW folks in our game department similar to what has happened in Utah. Just my opinion on things! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZkiller Report post Posted April 12, 2018 LOTS of opinions and information (or mis-information ) out there on this in a very short time! I spoke with Dave from the Arizona Deer Association this morning to get his take, and hence purportedly the ADA's take. At the end of that call I still had not changed my opinion regarding the auctioning off of tags, and I told him that. But, I definitely appreciated him sharing his thoughts and passion on the subject. For me, I am just vehemently opposed to the idea of auction tags. Partly because I see the chatter regarding the situation in Utah. Partly because of the bias I have based on some of the exact same folks pushing the same type of idea in 2012. Partly because the spirit of auctioning off the right to hunt to the highest bidder just doesn't seem to sit well with me. All of these reasons are simply my personal opinion, and mean a lot to me but likely no one else. I do however, agree that it could be of great value to have a funding source to help lobby/publicize/'educate' on issues that affect hunting. My vote would be to take some of the tags strictly for raffle purposes (NOT auction). For all I care, take 1% of the tags. Sell raffle tickets and have some legit org gather as much money as possible from that. Use the money according to the bylaws laid down, with the goal of protecting our right to hunt as we always have. An additional idea is what Flatlander mentioned; Have industry groups providing lobby/support money! Amazing the passion here. My advice is for ALL to get involved and make your voices heard, one way or the other. For or against, make your voice heard. NOT just here on this outstanding forum, but to the people and in the meetings that count! The meetings and discussions down the road that are sure to come as this thing works through the process. Good luck to us all!!! S. I agree, good stuff! I would like to see ultimately a raffle of some Deer tags, elk tags, sheep tags, Antelope tags and much other hunting and non hunting related items. Picture Health & Wealth Raffle comes to wildlife conservation. I think any raffle tags MUST be transferable as well so we can have as many raffle ticket holders as possible. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZkiller Report post Posted April 12, 2018 I totally understand about being upset not being able to hunt deer because you have fewer tags. The Humane Societies end goal is to stop hunting all together! Lion hunting is a foot in the door if you ban lion hunting deer and Elk numbers go down pretty soon it's easy to convince the non-hunting public that there are not enough animals to be able to hunt therefore we should stop all hunting. I definitely do not want to demonized the well-off. I am not one of them however I aspire to be one. Just because a guy can afford to go hunting and pump more money into wildlife and conservation than I ever will be able to does not make him a bad guy in my opinion. If the same guy that pays for a tag wants to give my state a few million dollars over the course of 10 years or so for wildlife and habitat more power to them. there are no guarantees in life, obviously we cannot guarantee that they won't ask for more tags we can't guarantee that this will make a difference, I can guarantee that if we do absolutely nothing but bicker at each other we will do nothing to help wildlife and the future of hunting in Arizona. I don't ee the harm at all in giving up a few tags that I will still have an opportunity to obtain, in order to have a voice against the anti hunters. How do we know they will be back?? Liberal ideas never die. They are very good at keeping focus and making their objective reality. Agree 100% that these groups think that somehow by allowing predators to thrive, nature will balance itself out without any help. They always fail to realize the impact that man has had on the environment which is why it makes no sense. This whole discussion has made me realize what a tightrope the average hunter walks in society. On the left we have groups that constantly assault our ability to own guns, to hunt game, and to manage our wildlife via the ballot box. On the right we have groups that are dedicated to selling our public land and hunting tags for quick profit. It's really upsetting that just a few weeks after we rid ourselves of the left, that the right rears up and attacks from their angle. As far as this proposal I try to look a few years ahead and figure out possible outcomes. This proposal is based on the pure conjecture that HSUS is back in 2 years. Let's assume this proposal goes through and look at possible outcomes in 2 years. There is no way to say that there is `100% certainty that HSUS will be back in 2 years. There is also no way to say that chance is 0%. Personally I think the odds of them coming back are in the 20-25% range. You might say 75% so let's just assume it is a 50/50 chance. There are 3 possible outcomes at this point. 1. HSUS decides not to pursue the ban again in 2 years. This would render the proposal useless and will have been a waste of hundreds of trophy tags and millions of dollars. 2. HSUS decides to try again and wins this time. This would render the proposal useless and will have been a waste of hundreds of trophy tags and millions of dollars. 3. HSUS decides to try again and loses. This would perhaps shine a positive light on the proposal. So there ultimately is a 66% (2 in 3, actually closer to 75% when you factor in the original 50/50 odds)chance that this proposal will have absolutely no meaningful difference in any outcome in 2 years. 1 in 3 odds it will have "some" impact. I don't like those odds when the tradeoff is hundreds of tags and millions of dollars, and the permanent entrenchment of AZSFW folks in our game department similar to what has happened in Utah. Just my opinion on things! I understand. But what if it's 50 trophy tags and 100 November tags? We can have an imput on what tags. Let's get involved. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted April 12, 2018 Gentlemen I could care less how the money is raised.....I dont care if you all get together and have a bake sale !!!!!.....But I would explore all of you to get off your collective ##### and do something....If you dont like this idea then take it upon yourselves to find a solution.....Dont stand on the sidelines!!!!!!! Dont just say why dont we do this and that. DO IT !!!!!! Why should the next sportsmens take the time and effort to make a difference when all you do is sit behind a keyboard and complain......For those of you who think this fight is over and HSUS wont be back....I have no words for you .....I beg of all of you look at what the trappings ban did to the deer and goat numbers in this state.....If you truly believe that a lion ban and then a bear hunting ban wont destroy are game herds.....again I have no words for you....The information is out there....not from any organization involved in this look it up..... This isnt about one sportsman its about are sport as we know it..... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trphyhntr Report post Posted April 12, 2018 How they gonna raise 5 mil with raffle cow tags 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ringer Report post Posted April 12, 2018 Here is what I fear. Don Peay and his cronies basically used the wolf introductions to do the exact same thing they are using the HSUS deal here for. They claimed to be the salvation of hunters against the antis and ended up compromising the Game & Fish of Utah and getting their plants on the commission. A lot of well meaning people are doing the same thing here. Believing they have the political clout and only they can save us all. I am against allowing the whoring of our big game system for any reason including some phony excuse like HSUS. The new group did help but how much? If you saw the dirty assed hippy women gathering signatures in front of Whole Foods you would know it was a big climb for them from the start. The sky is not falling yet the groups here are saying it is. I am not falling for the trap. Let's figure out a way to raise funds needed without selling off our heritage to politicians and rich girly men. 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JACK Report post Posted April 12, 2018 This isn’t just about the HSUS...google anti-hunting organizations...it about being able to fight ANY group that wants to take our hunting rights away...When and where and how they will do it nobody knows 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted April 12, 2018 A few more thoughts..... For those of you who want to raise funds the same way HSUS does ....By fundraising....Please look up there fundraising budget....They spend more on fundraising in one year then we could hope to raise in ten....But I implore you to start making phone calls and knocking on doors to start.... Please make phone calls to the state and find out just what it takes ( time , effort and money ) to change the laws and state constitution. And then by all means please start the process.... 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted April 12, 2018 Oh and ANY of you are welcome to join ANY of the many wildlife organizations in the state INCLUDING conserve and protect and make an impact in your own way.... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ringer Report post Posted April 12, 2018 We can never equal fundraising by HSUS. They constantly advertise on television and there are 90% more people who like furry animals than are hunters. If you want to make a difference get together and go to the legislature and get a bill passed to stop them from managing our wildlife through the ballot box. They will for sure try this again. I doubt that $5 million or higher will stop them if they have a hundred million to spend. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brademan76 Report post Posted April 12, 2018 The necessary funding to defend sportsmen from issues (such as the cat ban) already exists and could be increased without creating another "conservation group". The "collective conservation effort" is already burdensomely fractured and the overhead of each group to keep the lights on and pay employees and directors is just a waste of juice when really, they all have the same over-arching goal in mind (albeit on a species specific basis). IMO I don't see how adding another group (or groups) to the already thick mix, and giving them the power to control a pool of permits that belong to The People solves the problem (if there is a problem to begin with). Glad to see the conversation and passion around this topic. Always good to rally the troops. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
azelkhunter2 Report post Posted April 13, 2018 76 ...please tell me where this fundraising source is and how it can be increased.....I handle most of the fundraising efforts for the ADA and would would like to work with this source....Thanks Dave 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brademan76 Report post Posted April 13, 2018 Funding that is gleaned from donations and fundraising through existing conservation groups and related entities that is collected in the name of habitat, heritage, and protecting our privileges when threatened. Imagine if existing groups could collectively come together, pool resources, and make a move when all are threatened by attacks like the recent HSUS stunt. Think focusing a beam of sunlight with a lens vs sunlight passing through a flat pane of glass (when each group makes an individual effort). Beyond that, I should clarify and say that the vehicle to increase funding already exists specifically for this purpose if that is how it is defined when created. That is through the AZGFD licensing and permit system, as some have already suggested, in the form of increased permit fees, stamps, etc. I wonder if a portion of the monies from the Pittman-Roberston tax could be allocated for the efforts being discussed here before they go to the states. I understand that would mean an amendment to the Act, but just a wild idea... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZkiller Report post Posted April 13, 2018 Funding that is gleaned from donations and fundraising through existing conservation groups and related entities that is collected in the name of habitat, heritage, and protecting our privileges when threatened. Imagine if existing groups could collectively come together, pool resources, and make a move when all are threatened by attacks like the recent HSUS stunt. Think focusing a beam of sunlight with a lens vs sunlight passing through a flat pane of glass (when each group makes an individual effort). Beyond that, I should clarify and say that the vehicle to increase funding already exists specifically for this purpose if that is how it is defined when created. That is through the AZGFD licensing and permit system, as some have already suggested, in the form of increased permit fees, stamps, etc. I wonder if a portion of the monies from the Pittman-Roberston tax could be allocated for the efforts being discussed here before they go to the states. I understand that would mean an amendment to the Act, but just a wild idea... AZGFD connot use money it collects through it's own funding for political reasons. Pittman Robertson is a good question but would take forever on fed funding Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AZkiller Report post Posted April 13, 2018 What if they added trail camera permits to the auction? Would you guys be in then?😁 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
