What tag did the wife or I draw?12aw late hunt or 3a3c mule deer

[wildwoody]

And he didn't even want it. Lol

[couesdeerhntr]

Oh i wanted it just did not expect it. Not at all prepared thought i had a few more years under my belt before i could draw this tag

[CatfishKev]

Lol, I wish I had your problem dude.

[MT_Sourdough]

I have had a question I have been wondering a good part of my life. Ya see, I grew up on a ranch in Montana and at a fairly young age, I took on the grueling chore of shooting gophers in our hay fields. Over the years, I shot thousands of gophers (Ground Squirrels). Sometimes I'd lay those gophers out on top of gopher mounds. It was odd because the hawks, coyotes, and all other animals that eat gophers left those gophers alone. Nothing (except canabal gophers) would ever eat those gophers. After hearing the case about lead poisoning to scavengers, I think I may know why all those critters developed the behavior of avoiding gophers that have been shot.

I have hundreds of pounds of lead out in my garage, mostly ingots of melted down wheel weights. I have a cast bullet that I designed for the Marlin 444 with 1/20 Ballard barrel that allows these rifles to use 400 grain cast bullets. To make a long story short, I am using copper monolithic bullets for my buffalo hunt to comply with the unleaded bullet program.

As far as non-leaded bullets don't shoot well in anybody's muzzle loader, I am sure people know to remove all the ledding from their barrel before testing those unleaded bullets. As a general rule, a barrel with lead fouling will not shoot copper bullets well.

[Flatlander]

Still where's the facts, inform me please, is there a site with this information?

The easiest place to find it is right in the regs page 44. Here are a few facts from that page.

- Lead poisoning is the leading cause of death among California Condors

- There are 73 CA Condors in AZ / UT (so one death would equal a loss of 1.4% of the population.

- 450 cases of lead exposure in Condors has been documented since 1999

 

There is also more info on the website at azgfd.ov/condors

- Studies show that lead shot and bullet fragments found in game carcasses and gut piles are the main source of lead in condors

- Lead poisoning has been identified as the leading cause of death in condors and the main obstacle to a self-sustaining population

 

If you google it there is this one http://www.ventanaws.org/species_condors_lead/frequently-asked-questions-about-condors.htm

- both California and Arizona, either lead shot and/or rifle fragments have been recovered in the digestive systems of condors

- The mortality factors thought to be important in the declineof the historic California Condor population, particularly lead poisoning, remain the most important

documented mortality factors today

- 23 out of 76 recovered dead condors were killed from lead poisoning from 1992 - 2009

And this one http://www.huntingwithnonlead.org/scientific_evidence2015.html

- 3 lead pellets was enough to kill a turkey vulture

- 10 lead pellets produced 100% mortality in bald eagles

- Links to other bird/lead studies including condors

[Delw]

While I enjoy seeing some azkiller bashing. He is correct to a point.

theres a ton of natural lead in the cliffs where there are condors and in the drinking water seeps. it is more of a liberal screaming the sky is falling than anything else..

Just because something has lead bullet fragments in its digestive tract and dies of lead poisoning doesn't mean the thing died of lead poisoning from eating lead bullet fragments.

 

they use the excuess that condors are scavengers and thats why they get lead poisoning so easy. but thats not entirely true. look at the prairie dog killing feilds eagles hawks and a ton of animals eat the dead carcasses all the time almost every day and you dont see them dropping out of the sky or find them dead all the time.

 

 

 

 

the lead thing is bad no if ans or butts about it. but some common sences has to come into play instead of claiming the sky is falling

[Flatlander]

While I enjoy seeing some azkiller bashing. He is correct to a point.

theres a ton of natural lead in the cliffs where there are condors and in the drinking water seeps. it is more of a liberal screaming the sky is falling than anything else..

Just because something has lead bullet fragments in its digestive tract and dies of lead poisoning doesn't mean the thing died of lead poisoning from eating lead bullet fragments.

 

they use the excuess that condors are scavengers and thats why they get lead poisoning so easy. but thats not entirely true. look at the prairie dog killing feilds eagles hawks and a ton of animals eat the dead carcasses all the time almost every day and you dont see them dropping out of the sky or find them dead all the time.

 

 

 

 

the lead thing is bad no if ans or butts about it. but some common sences has to come into play instead of claiming the sky is falling

Dude did you even read the research? The paper Profiles of Mortality by Church et al clearly explains the method for verifying that the lead found in condors was consistent with ammunition.

 

And please why would a liberal give a crap about you shooting copper?

 

23 out of a total population of 350 condors died from eating lead so its not simply stating that condors will die because eagles did, but they tested condors as well, guess what, they died too.

 

There is lots of research on this and its not just liberals saying the sky is falling. Its actually the opposite, researchers who support hunting and fishing are asking sportsmen to make a really simple adjustment in their behavior to help benefit the ecosystem.

 

AES, ADA, ADBSS, AAS all agree with the non-lead recommendation. Please point to some kind of research that supports any of these claims that only one condor died and it was from 300 pieces of lead? Please provide the sources.

 

These kinds of issues are where we as sportsmen must hold each other accountable. If you dont agree with me, fine, please have some scientific findimg that suppprts your argument and doesnt make all hunters look like uneducated goons who only care about their own interests.

[Delw]

 

While I enjoy seeing some azkiller bashing. He is correct to a point.

theres a ton of natural lead in the cliffs where there are condors and in the drinking water seeps. it is more of a liberal screaming the sky is falling than anything else..

Just because something has lead bullet fragments in its digestive tract and dies of lead poisoning doesn't mean the thing died of lead poisoning from eating lead bullet fragments.

 

they use the excuess that condors are scavengers and thats why they get lead poisoning so easy. but thats not entirely true. look at the prairie dog killing feilds eagles hawks and a ton of animals eat the dead carcasses all the time almost every day and you dont see them dropping out of the sky or find them dead all the time.

 

 

 

 

the lead thing is bad no if ans or butts about it. but some common sences has to come into play instead of claiming the sky is falling

Dude did you even read the research? The paper Profiles of Mortality by Church et al clearly explains the method for verifying that the lead found in condors was consistent with ammunition.

 

And please why would a liberal give a crap about you shooting copper?

 

23 out of a total population of 350 condors died from eating lead so its not simply stating that condors will die because eagles did, but they tested condors as well, guess what, they died too.

 

There is lots of research on this and its not just liberals saying the sky is falling. Its actually the opposite, researchers who support hunting and fishing are asking sportsmen to make a really simple adjustment in their behavior to help benefit the ecosystem.

 

AES, ADA, ADBSS, AAS all agree with the non-lead recommendation. Please point to some kind of research that supports any of these claims that only one condor died and it was from 300 pieces of lead? Please provide the sources.

 

These kinds of issues are where we as sportsmen must hold each other accountable. If you dont agree with me, fine, please have some scientific findimg that suppprts your argument and doesnt make all hunters look like uneducated goons who only care about their own interests.

 

Read a ton of it over the years as well as a ton of other things to debunk it.

do I think its happens yes not as bad as they say but it doesnt happen. shoot happens kids die of it as well.

Funny though I am surprised that 3/4 of the worlds population isnt dead from lead poisoning. let alone 90% of the navy in the early years till the 70's

 

if I recall there was about 5 of them they claimed to have died from bullet fragments.

2 or 3 in Ca died of lead poisoning in the 90s? the claimed it was from the seeps the birds were drinking from if I recall

 

on a side not if its something you really believe in good for you. and I hope every round you shoot is lead free anywhere in the states. if not your part of the uneducated goon squad like the rest of us.

 

something to think about is why isnt the desert littered with birds of prey after dove season

[Delw]

Granted this is one article there are plenty more BOTH for bullets being a cause and NOT being a cause.

and YES did this all started with liberals in Ca claiming the sky is falling.

Its kinda like global warming you have some crack pots saying its happening and some crack pots saying its not.

truth is, like California Condors sure it happens but not like its hyped up to be. especially not to make hunters feel guilty about it. if that's the case anyone that hunts with lead and then claims hunters are uneducated goons is a hypocrite

science or not they spew shoot out of there mouths when its convenient for a cause and vise versa(both sides)

 

 

http://www.huntfortruth.org/wildlife-and-species/california-condor/

 

Since the designation of the California condor as endangered and the intervention by the Condor Recovery Program, there has been a significant controversy over the alleged poisoning and mortality of the condors, claimed to be linked to the ingestion of lead. While some researchers maintain that lead ammunition from gutpiles or game carrion left in the field by hunters is the primary source of lead exposure to condors, there is compelling evidence of alternative sources of lead in the environment. Such alternative sources of lead include paint chips from old buildings, legacy leaded gasoline in soils, mining wastes, old insecticides and microtrash.

One such noted exposure to an alternative source of lead in the environment was discovered at Pinnacles National Monument, where condors # 317 and 318 were observed ingesting lead paint fragments from the North Chalone Fire Lookout Tower. In turn, these parents fed the regurgitated lead paint fragments to their fledgling (# 550). Condors # 317, 318 and 550 were all tested and found to have high blood-lead levels, while # 550 had to be evacuated to the Los Angeles Zoo for intense treatment for lead poisoning.

The first condor to be identified as a lead-related mortality was Condor # 19 in March of 1984. According to the condor’s medical file, no forensic analysis was performed on a 7-8mm metallic fragment reportedly recovered from the “gizzard,” though necropsy personnel reported being able to cut the fragment with a metal scalpel.

Rarely, if ever, has an actual projectile fragment been found in the digestive tract of a California condor. However, objects that were thought to be projectile fragments were subsequently found to be pieces of gravel or a “woody” substance, not from ammunition. Hunt for Truth has discovered that many of these researchers “cherry picked” this information, deleting it and often refusing to present the underlying information to scientific peer review, policy makers and the public at large. This activity by the researchers calls their very claims and conclusions into serious question.

The purported link between the use of lead ammunition and the poisoning and/or mortality in condors is further weakened by the failure of California’s lead ban to successfully combat lead poisoning in wildlife. Assembly Bill (AB) 821 was passed out by the California Legislature on September 5, 2007 and enrolled September 10, 2007. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger signed AB 821 on October 13, 2007, just after the Concord Fish and Game Commission hearing which banned the use of lead centerfire ammunition while hunting big game in the condor range. The bill was predicated and passed on its proponents’ assurances that hunters’ lead ammunition was the cause of lead related poisoning and deaths in California condors.

Since the passage of AB 821, the California Department of Fish and Game wardens have surveyed the types of ammunition used by hunters in the Condor Zones during hunting season, where the use of lead ammunition is banned. Despite 98.89% hunter compliance with AB 821, the 2009, 2010, and 2011 condor blood-lead data, collected by the Condor Recovery Program in California, shows that the incidence of lead exposure and poisoning in condors remains static and actually increased slightly.

Hunt for Truth believes that the combination of: 1) the 2009, 2010, and 2011 blood lead data; 2) the passage of AB 821, and; 3) the Department of Fish and Game’s evidence of 98.89% hunter compliance with the lead ban, strongly indicate that hunters’ ammunition is not the cause of lead exposure and toxicity in condors and alternative sources of lead are to blame.

Those attempting to impede hunters’ rights through the prohibition of traditional ammunition consisting of lead components have used the California condor as a propaganda tool to advance their campaign. Hunt for Truth continues to investigate the truth about the purported nexus between traditional ammunition and lead poisoning and/or mortality in California condors.

 

[trophyseeker]

 

Granted this is one article there are plenty more BOTH for bullets being a cause and NOT being a cause.

and YES did this all started with liberals in Ca claiming the sky is falling.

Its kinda like global warming you have some crack pots saying its happening and some crack pots saying its not.

truth is, like California Condors sure it happens but not like its hyped up to be. especially not to make hunters feel guilty about it. if that's the case anyone that hunts with lead and then claims hunters are uneducated goons is a hypocrite

science or not they spew shoot out of there mouths when its convenient for a cause and vise versa(both sides)

 

 

http://www.huntfortruth.org/wildlife-and-species/california-condor/

 

Since the designation of the California condor as endangered and the intervention by the Condor Recovery Program, there has been a significant controversy over the alleged poisoning and mortality of the condors, claimed to be linked to the ingestion of lead. While some researchers maintain that lead ammunition from gutpiles or game carrion left in the field by hunters is the primary source of lead exposure to condors, there is compelling evidence of alternative sources of lead in the environment. Such alternative sources of lead include paint chips from old buildings, legacy leaded gasoline in soils, mining wastes, old insecticides and microtrash.

One such noted exposure to an alternative source of lead in the environment was discovered at Pinnacles National Monument, where condors # 317 and 318 were observed ingesting lead paint fragments from the North Chalone Fire Lookout Tower. In turn, these parents fed the regurgitated lead paint fragments to their fledgling (# 550). Condors # 317, 318 and 550 were all tested and found to have high blood-lead levels, while # 550 had to be evacuated to the Los Angeles Zoo for intense treatment for lead poisoning.

The first condor to be identified as a lead-related mortality was Condor # 19 in March of 1984. According to the condor’s medical file, no forensic analysis was performed on a 7-8mm metallic fragment reportedly recovered from the “gizzard,” though necropsy personnel reported being able to cut the fragment with a metal scalpel.

Rarely, if ever, has an actual projectile fragment been found in the digestive tract of a California condor. However, objects that were thought to be projectile fragments were subsequently found to be pieces of gravel or a “woody” substance, not from ammunition. Hunt for Truth has discovered that many of these researchers “cherry picked” this information, deleting it and often refusing to present the underlying information to scientific peer review, policy makers and the public at large. This activity by the researchers calls their very claims and conclusions into serious question.

The purported link between the use of lead ammunition and the poisoning and/or mortality in condors is further weakened by the failure of California’s lead ban to successfully combat lead poisoning in wildlife. Assembly Bill (AB) 821 was passed out by the California Legislature on September 5, 2007 and enrolled September 10, 2007. Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger signed AB 821 on October 13, 2007, just after the Concord Fish and Game Commission hearing which banned the use of lead centerfire ammunition while hunting big game in the condor range. The bill was predicated and passed on its proponents’ assurances that hunters’ lead ammunition was the cause of lead related poisoning and deaths in California condors.

Since the passage of AB 821, the California Department of Fish and Game wardens have surveyed the types of ammunition used by hunters in the Condor Zones during hunting season, where the use of lead ammunition is banned. Despite 98.89% hunter compliance with AB 821, the 2009, 2010, and 2011 condor blood-lead data, collected by the Condor Recovery Program in California, shows that the incidence of lead exposure and poisoning in condors remains static and actually increased slightly.

Hunt for Truth believes that the combination of: 1) the 2009, 2010, and 2011 blood lead data; 2) the passage of AB 821, and; 3) the Department of Fish and Game’s evidence of 98.89% hunter compliance with the lead ban, strongly indicate that hunters’ ammunition is not the cause of lead exposure and toxicity in condors and alternative sources of lead are to blame.

Those attempting to impede hunters’ rights through the prohibition of traditional ammunition consisting of lead components have used the California condor as a propaganda tool to advance their campaign. Hunt for Truth continues to investigate the truth about the purported nexus between traditional ammunition and lead poisoning and/or mortality in California condors.

 

 

 

Is the above, such as this passage below supposed to be "research?"

 

One such noted exposure to an alternative source of lead in the environment was discovered at Pinnacles National Monument, where condors # 317 and 318 were observed ingesting lead paint fragments from the North Chalone Fire Lookout Tower. In turn, these parents fed the regurgitated lead paint fragments to their fledgling (# 550). Condors # 317, 318 and 550 were all tested and found to have high blood-lead levels, while # 550 had to be evacuated to the Los Angeles Zoo for intense treatment for lead poisoning.

 

And this:

 

Rarely, if ever, has an actual projectile fragment been found in the digestive tract of a California condor.

 

Figure 1. Condor #318 on his nest at Pinnacles National Park. Photo by Gavin Emmons

 

Figure 2. Lead object found in condor #318, confirmed to be .22 caliber bullet.

 

Figure 3. .22 caliber lead bullet recovered from condor #318. Photo by Zeka Kuspa

[trphyhntr]

How come the crows and vultures don't die from the lead, or do they

[yotebuster]

I would say the huntfortruth.org is not a source that can be referenced. Google scientific method and read up on what it takes to conduct and publish scientific data. Just saying something because you have a personal belief about it doesnt count.

[wish2hunt]

How come the crows and vultures don't die from the lead, or do they

No one cares about them.

[trophyseeker]

How come the crows and vultures don't die from the lead, or do they

 

Lots of studies already done. They do indeed die, just as millions of waterfowl have died from lead shot ingestion. Just google it. The difference is they are not constantly monitored 24/7 by radio collars like the condors are.

[trophyseeker]

I would say the huntfortruth.org is not a source that can be referenced. Google scientific method and read up on what it takes to conduct and publish scientific data. Just saying something because you have a personal belief about it doesnt count.

 

Ya think?