bonecollector777

hahaha I love it guys. Keep it coming. CMC, you didn't have a chance to pass on that thing because it was kickin' in the dirt 20 minutes after the sun came up the first day of the hunt. Nice try though Let me guess you're gonna come back and say you passed up the 180" drop tine buck in the archery hunt because it was just too ugly. . right? haha not going after anyone's character or making anything up. I heard it straight from Bob Burkly, his BOSS, out of Winslow. If you want to ask I'm sure he would be happy to tell you about it! Didn't mean to hurt your guys little feelings posting something negative about an almighty game and fish officer. What a horrible sin I have committed. 125Coues, based off of your post, you ,along with many other game and fish lovers would more than likely be one of them someday. If you're not already basically the guys that kiss AZGFD's butt and look for anyone doing the slightest thing wrong while hunting so they can run and tell an officer and in return they get something promised to them. Such as certain tags. But I forgot that would never happen because AZGFD would never dream of slipping someone a tag in trade for information. They are too good of guys to do something like that! lol let's get with reality here boys. Time to wake up.

Hahaha and how do you know it's untrue? I suppose a AZGFD worshipper like yourself would never believe anyone from the department would ever do such a thing and therefore believe automatically it's not true. Just passing on what HIS BOSS told me. After hearing his success story I'm really thinking about getting into wildlife management when I graduate with my biology degree. Using the taxpayers money flying around in the governments bird to scout for my 400" bull. Doesn't get any better than that!! Thanks for the guidance

Hey does 2 windy taxidermy have a website or anything I can look at to see his work? I looked on the internet and couldn't find anything about them.

TTT

Hey Packer, you wouldn't happen to be the Game and Fish officer that had an early archery bull tag in 27 that killed the 400" bull are you? You know, I'm talking about the officer who was doing his surveys two weeks before the early archery elk hunt in 27 and spotted a 400" bull that he happened to kill the first day of the hunt? Oh yeah I'm pretty sure that was you! Last I checked doing some "surveys" which happened to also be scouting, in the governments helicopter two weeks before a hunt isn't ethical or legal Just wanted to make sure you were the one that your boss over in Winslow told me about last week. Now lets hear it from all the AZGFD lovers! What's the excuse haha. .

TTT

I'm in Mesa

Looking for any suggestions of taxidermists that do good work with badgers. Please don't suggest someone just because they are your friend or relative. I'm looking to get a mount done for my dad and want it to look as lifelike as possible. Thanks guys!

Thanks, but oh no there are still some deer left in 3C. Big elk no. . Do I think there will be big deer in 3c in 5 years? No . .

Except that the whole thread is filled with stupid comments...mostly from people who seem to think they are full of wisdom beyond their years. Thanks 6ANut Uglydude, if you feel they are stupid there is no need to add more stupidity We can be stupid without you bothering us

Did you guys not read anything on this post? That's what this whole thing is about. How AZGFD is giving too many tags in certain hunts, or in others views they are doing just fine. And the arguments as to why they are or aren't. So don't come on to a post and read the 2 or 3 posts on the last page and start making stupid comments that have nothing to do with anything.

Nope, had the 3C General deer hunt and got this nice buck And actually just got a turkey and javelina tag for the spring! Doing great

Of course they will say no, because of their cattle. Which once again, ranchers are a very small number of people that AZGFD tries to make happy. If they are "out to make the majority happy" why do ranchers have such a big say in it? Oh wait maybe because it makes AZGFD more money! Explained. .

I'm not sure what your view on the subject is bowhunter81? You haven't really said anything about the subject besides giving a +1 to a post with people with different opinions. Not saying you have to agree or disagree with what I'm saying, just trying to figure out where you stand.

Glad we could humor you ugly. . I'm not saying the big wigs had to risk anything. Not hard to get away with it when the ones involved in the draw at the department are the ones helping people get the tags. You honestly don't think it's very easy for them to get someone a tag if they want? They are the almighty Game and Fish remember? They can do what they want. . Congratulations, you actually said one thing that made sense. We do have biology, accounting, and basic civics/government. And of course you will take what Packer says as true. He is from the AZGFD, they are never wrong! Keep believing everything the department feeds you. That's what they want. And looks like you're taking it hook, line, and sinker.

Well my first and best idea, (according to all of you AZGFD lovers) would be to simply move the juniors hunts to a different area out of a trophy unit. Because according to you AZGFD lovers it's not about killing. It's just about getting out there and enjoying the great outdoors. How come suddenly this isn't a good idea? They expect us adults to hunt around in those areas with no animals, so what's the difference? Might as well get the youth ready for what they are gonna get once they turn 18. Since most people here aren't really concerned about killing anything, going off of what you have said in earlier posts, it seems like putting juniors in units like 4B and the 2's would be perfect. They could get out and enjoy the great outdoors and have a grand old time. They could get drawn every year even! That should please all of you guys with that point of view about quantity of tags over quality of tags. Suddenly that doesn't sound like such a good idea does it? If it doesn't make sense for the youth why does it make sense for the adults? And no worries, I'm not worried about not being drawn because I dislike them. I have disliked them for years and have had plenty of tags and will continue to dislike them. I have no problem letting them know about it either. Aaron, that's my point. Your guidelines call for killing WAY to many elk and deer. You can ask any hunter in the white mountains how ridiculous they think it is that throughout the year there are over a thousand elk tags throughout all the hunts in nearly every unit. And nearly 500 deer tags throughout the year in 3C. I don't know where you guys get the guidelines from, I'm guessing since you boys went to some school and got a biology degree you suddenly know all about it. (Don't try and come back and say this taught you anything about taking care of managing animals better than other people because I'm at ASU in my 4th year getting my biology degree also.) My point along with many other peoples points is you are killing way to many animals which is bringing the quality of the hunts down. Nothing more nothing less. So when I talk about cutting tags in some hunts you simply say that they will add them to another hunt in that unit. It's inconceivable to actually lower the guidelines, cut back on tags, and let more animals live right? That would be horrible! Not as much money for you guys! I can't imagine the pain you guys feel just thinking about getting less money from us.

123456, just one more AZGFD lover huh? Everything Packer said has to be fact right? because he is part of the love affair and would never lead you astray. I found it funny that when I mentioned cutting juniors hunts and the department one of the first things said by Packer was that the department wouldn't lose money. They would just find some other place to slay 25 deer that they don't need to. They would never imagine losing a little bit of money like I mentioned earlier. THAT"S A FACT. Agreed AZKiller, I have seen and heard of this many times. Game and fish informants getting tags for information given, big wigs getting tags just because of who they are. My dad had a friend in the early 90's who turned out to be a Game and Fish informant and before the draw even came out he told my dad he was getting an Early rifle bull tag along with a strip tag. Guess what tags he had when the draw came out? Early rifle bull and a strip tag. Hmmm. . . just more and more things every year I hear and see about the Game and Fish that make me dislike them and not trust a thing they do. While others here can't seem to stop worshiping them.

How would you go about changing the guidelines to only have 1 junior hunt in the region? I doubt the department would even think about it because they would lose money but it would be worth a try. According to some peoples logic on here people "just want to get out in the woods and have fun and don't really care about killing anything" and " a great experience is just getting out in the woods" and all that bologna So why do we care about where they hunt? Put them in 4AB and let them chase the 2 deer in the unit. They will still have fun according to you guys and they wont be in a trophy unit. I also forgot about the archery hunts in 3C. I have heard but don't know if it's true that when the department wanted to cut back on the tag numbers certain groups such as the Arizona deer association and others that make money off of hunters hunting there threw a fit so the department changed it back to make them happy. What's up with that? I thought this was about management and not money? I heard this straight from a game wardens mouth during my 3C rifle hunt.

Flatlander, your name says it all for me. You live down in the valley and probably get in the woods once or twice a year and have a love affair for the department just like many others from there. You think they are just working so hard to get us the best hunting possible and that they could never be wrong with any decision they make because they are the Game and Fish department. I'm sure in you're head it has absolutely nothing to do with money right? Just great game management and all that..and how do I know? Because when 400 inch bulls come from units that never produce 400 inch bulls and knowing many hunters that were out there everyday and talking to the game warden about bulls killed in the area you hear about things like that. Anyone with a 400 inch bull is gonna show it off. Being from such a small town right in the middle of 4B and 3C you eventually hear about it. Unlike flatlanders who don't know anything about the hunting or quality of bulls in the areas up north. You're happy getting your cow tags and bull tags and kill 300 inch bulls. The majority of us up here aren't. You mentioned that tags this year and next year will be less than 5 years ago. Did you think that maybe Game and Fish thought they better stop killing all the elk before they ran out of them? When you're consistently killing hundreds of elk per year and raising tag numbers you're eventually going to run out of elk if you keep it up. So there may be less tags this year but there are DEFINITELY less elk here. And DEFINITELY lower quality elk. Therefore the Game and Fish had to give somewhere before they completely ruined the unit. Living in the heart of 3C and knowing hundreds of other elk hunters that feel the same way I do and have seen it first hand is much better proof than anything AZGFD or some flatlander like yourself can give me. I definitely am giving up on 3C, you can bet on that. We're definitely screwed here in 3C if we want a bull bigger than 350-360. So continue your love affair and believe all the "facts" you read in the numbers and "facts" the department gives you but as for myself I'm gonna go off of what myself and hundreds of other hunters from up here have seen first hand and are only seeing it get worse. Worse in the sense of quality bulls in the area. Not in you're sense of being happy with little bulls and cows. You can have all of that you want. So I suggest you continue putting in for 3C and 4B and whatever other units you enjoy hunting in and continue killing those little bulls. Or just get out and enjoy the great outdoors like you mentioned earlier if you can't seem to find an elk or if you can't avoid getting stepped on by the insanely crazy amount of hunters in the area during your hunt. As for me I'll be putting in for areas that produce quality bulls, while I still can, before the department ruins those areas too. Packer, it's hard for me to believe a whole lot of what the department tells us. It may seem to some that you're doing everything you can to make the units better. But I just can't believe it when I hear things MUCH different from hunters first hand everywhere I go in the white mountains. Keep the units that produce big bulls the way they are. Don't bring them down to the level of nearly every other unit in the state with small bulls and a ton of cows. I have been to meetings where there have been many people there that state their opinions. Most notably when the department decided to make 3C a trophy deer unit. Everyone there stated their opinion that they wanted less tags. 100 tags were agreed on and 100 tags were recommended. And when they regulations came out they had 200 tags! And still had a juniors hunt in the area. WTF? It just showed me and many others that once you guys have your minds made up it doesn't matter what we say. You're going to do what you want. I also agree with what AzKiller said, why not just stop killing so many dang cows and your bull:cow ratio will get to where you want it much quicker than trying to kill more cows. You guys act like there are so many elk there they are going to burst at the seams and they are going to eat every plant in the area and all die. Give me a break. So when the department starts showing us that they can actually manage a trophy unit and keep it a trophy unit and not kill every decent sized elk in the unit or that you can show us you can bring a unit back to being a good unit from being a poor unit (4B perfect example, not an elk within 20 square miles in some spots but tags just keep going up and up.) I'll start believing what they say. But until then many of us in the white mountains won't have very high opinions of the wardens or the department as a whole.

You must not have talked to many hunters this year who drew a tag in 4B. Most of those big bulls came from 27 and unit 1. Definitely not 3C. 4B had the exception of 1 400 bull. Which hasn't happened in a long time. Our money from the tag increases goes straight to their pockets and they claim to be using it to manage wildlife. The most insane thing to me is what they are doing to unit 4B and 3C. 4B has about a total of about 200 elk in it. You could drive for years out there and not see a living thing. Yet somehow they raised tags by 25 this year to 175. That's just the archery tags. Game and fish only wants us to be successful in the draw so they can get their money. Other than that they don't care if we kill anything. We're kind of going in circles here in this post but I know of many more people in this state that are unhappy with AZGFD than those that are happy. We are fed up with these greedy money hungry people. Whether you're going to agree with me or not start asking around and see what they guys up here in the white mountains think about AZGFD. I promise you're not going to find many happy hunters. Yeah they are still going to hunt and put up with it because that's the only thing we can do if we still want to hunt. I'm not sure why they even have these public input meetings. They don't care what we say. They want the money and they are going to get it. It's been shown in the past when everyone at the meeting disagrees with tag numbers in a unit and then the regs come out with more tags than they recommended anyway. Alright all done. Hope it changes someday! But I fear we're screwed and it's only gonna get worse.

Agreed guys.. they are going to destroy any quality bulls that are in those units. Any unit that starts to have more quality elk they make sure to quickly destroy them. I agree with some things said above about having the experience of getting out with the family and just enjoying the hunt. Someone earlier said in AZ there are units for people to trophy hunt and units to just hunt and kill any elk. The problems G and F aren't keeping it that way! Keep the units not known for big bulls and let every blow joe that wants to go hunt there if they are just looking to get out and enjoy walking along side hundreds of other people. But leave the units that are already trophy units TROPHY units. Don't raise the tags and kill every decent bull in the forest. That's the problem right there. G and F don't really care about quality animals, they care about MONEY in their pockets. Therefore the don't care if they raise tag numbers in 22, 1, 27, 3C and all the other units because more tags = more money. As said before they are worthless and only deserve credit for being really good at making more money for themselves and ruining trophy units.

I am laughing my butt off, at your statement, that all the good bulls, cows and the statement " killed the elk off" in 3c ... 3c still has an excellent population of elk and I nor the many hunters I know that hunt that unit year after year continue to see quality and numbers of Elk including this year ... if anything the herd has gotten stronger since the fire even with the hunting harvest of the last 8 years, but if you feel they are all gone please negate those hunts as choices on your application so I may finally get a Bull tag for the hunt and unit I want p.s. the increase in trophy hunters in these units all looking to harvest 400+ class Bulls has just as much an impact on the herd as the number of tags... if one thing can be learned, we can learn it from the White Mountain Apache Tribe, that too many cows and rags horns not being culled from the herd effects the numbers of big bulls in the long run.... They seen the impact many years back and have been offering numerous opportunities to hunters to balance out the cows and rag horns since to improve the herds... keep in mind this helps in 3c since many move back and forth over the fence lne Wow, I'm not sure what area of 3C you have been hunting in but I'd love to know where you're finding herds that are stronger now than 5 years ago. I do agree with you that 3C does have a decent population of elk. Of small raghorn bulls and some cows. Plenty of those if that's what your after. And you will never have to worry about me putting in for a 3C elk tag anytime in the near future. It's all yours! You're welcome 3C is or atleast was expected to produce 400+" bulls year after year. Which it did for many years until now. As stated before if your looking to get out and find just any elk or small six point 3C is the place for you. Can't think of a better unit. But if your looking for BIG bulls 3C is no longer what it used to be and cannot produce the trophy bulls year after year. Let's take what you said and go a little deeper. Game and Fish say too many raghorns and cows hurt the herd. Ok, let's say that's true. One thing they forgot to do is limit how many of the big bulls were killed. Instead they said hey lets kill more cows, raghorns, and big bulls than needed, we will make thousands of dollars more AND we will have a unit full of below average bulls! Good job guys, you did it! Let me know what size bull you kill when you finally get the 3C tag you have been hoping for. If it's over 360 I'll pay for it to be mounted

I agree with some points you made there. But disagree with many also. I don't buy this whole thing that they need all this money just because they are avoiding the federal money. G&F are greedy. I'm basing my judgments off of the units I hunt. 3A/3C and 4A/4B. And also from what I am seeing in unit 27. Every year 3C had bulls coming out that scored 400 or somewhere close. Ask these poor hunters who hunted the bull hunts this year what's the biggest bull they saw. I know guys with early rifle 3C tags, supposedly one of the most coveted elk tags in northern Arizona that were shooting 350" bulls and were satisfied because that's all they could find. That is a respectable bull yes, but when in the years past it was almost unheard of if a rifle hunter killed a bull smaller then 380. I agree it's still very easy to come out here and kill an elk. But when you have 5 point 300 inch bulls as the herd bulls you know there is a problem. It's one thing if this isn't supposed to be a trophy unit but after the fire the elk started showing up by the hundreds. So what did G and F do? Raised the tags by the hundreds and have now killed every decent sized bull in the unit. If your happy with just getting a tag and enjoying being in the forest with hundreds of other hunters right next to you I think G and F is doing a great job. 3C is supposedly turning into a "trophy" mule deer unit. So they recommend having 100 tags and guess how many tags are in the regs? 200! and wait! Let's throw in a juniors hunt in that unit so we can kill every deer that survived the general hunt. If I'm not mistaken this is the only "trophy" unit in the state with a juniors hunt.That's just 3C. Don't even try and talk about 4B. G and F has been bragging this year because some guy randomly sat a tank and killed a 400 bull in there. So now they somehow are doing a great job in the unit and are "managing" like ever before. Give me a break. . You could walk/drive in 4B for days and never see a deer or turkey. Yeah there are a few elk but good luck finding one that's a decent six point. Oh yeah I forgot to talk about turkey over here in 3C. Turkey numbers were up like we had never seen over here about 3-4 years ago. So what does G and F do? Make it an over the counter juniors hunt! And kill nearly every turkey in the place! But do they cut back on the tags? NO. .just keep raising them and keep killing the poor birds that survived the massacre the few years past. Unit 27 is going to be the same way. The next couple years there are going to be a lot of nice bulls come out of there. And year after year after year G and F will raise the tag numbers and kill them off like they did in 3C. I give it 5-6 years before it's all used up. I read an article in American Hunter magazine talking about the number of B&C animals taken from each state the past two decades. I tried finding it on the internet but couldn't locate it. From 1990-2000 Arizona was producing more B&C entries for almost every animal. If not #1 they were top 3. From 2000-2010 Arizona isn't in the top 5 for any animal. Utah is DESTROYING in the elk department. My point here is that while there are still animals out there to hunt, there aren't near as many trophy animals in Arizona that there were 10 years ago. You can go kill a 5 point bull in any western state. But that's not what Arizona is known for. Arizona is known for being one of the top states for pulling out B&C animals. But they are slowly slipping down the rankings and becoming just like any other state. Like the Idaho example you gave. I don't think Arizona is far from that. It's just sad to see the Game and Fish killing off the majority of trophy animals just to make a buck. AZGFD deserves no credit other than being greedy and worthless in my eyes.

Haha doesn't get any better than that AZlance! Free $1000 buffalo tag! Yeah, whoever is in charge of this online draw process needs some serious help. They screw up EVERYTHING.

This is all about money. Game and Fish claim they are balancing out the herd and all that crap but every unit that starts to produce more elk they just raise the tag numbers and kill them. Take 3C for example. After the Rodeo Chediski fire the next 8 years were great for harvesting big bulls. But slowly, year by year the G and F raised the tag numbers and slowly killed the elk off. What's hurting a lot of units is the COW hunts. Kill all the cows and you won't get more elk. Its insane how many hunts they have. If the elk survives the early archery they have to make it through the early rifle. If they survive that they have to make it through it junior hunts. If they make it through that they have to get through the late archery hunts. If they survive that they have to make it through the late rifle hunts. With each one of these hunts having hundreds of tags! But as the Game and Fish get more and more greedy they will raise tag numbers AND start charging more for the tags. They claim it's all about just getting out there and people don't mind killing animals. They just want to have the experience. Sadly, here in a couple years it's going to be nearly impossible to have a decent hunt with so few animals and so many people in certain areas. But G and F will continue to make their money because everyone will keep putting in hoping for that coveted tag. So why would G and F stop now? More money they make the happier they are. They know how it works. . and sadly there isn't anything we can do about it. AZ Game and Fish is a joke and will always be a joke.