fantail whitetail or all coues

[.270]

it's like bill says. you have coues whitetail and eastern whitetail and that's it. Lark.

[billrquimby]

it's like bill says. you have coues whitetail and eastern whitetail and that's it. Lark.

 

 

Lark, you're pulling my chain again! Aaaaaaaargh!

 

Bill Quimby

[COOSEFAN]

I have to agree with Mr. Quimby here, I would be making a serious run at them little dwarf deer. That is a great buck and was a lot easier to pack to the truck, and if the truck was too far you could sit down, light a fire and eat him up. I tend to lean towards non-typical game when given the chance.

 

 

What did that buck score if you dont mind me asking cooesfan?

 

 

I paid close attention to all the deer I glassed up in the high country on that ranch this past season and none of them appeared to be dwarfs. I did find a buck that was almost in the same spot where I killed my "Midget" and he had an almost identical rack but was bigger bodied than the does he was chasing. Unless his does were midgets too, i'm certain he was normal size but i would bet he was related to my buck! With that in mind, it sure seems like the same dwarfism characteristics that we see in humans. I would bet a single doe could have twins and one could be a dwarf and the other could be normal. It's just a rare genetic variant. And, as with humans, there are different types of dwarfism or genetic variants, some could be even smaller than others or have different abnormalities such as smaller antlers, shorter legs etc.. I would bet money these deer with the dwarfism trait is exactly the type of deer folks are calling "Fantails". I don't think it has anything to do with "color phase", it's all about the size of them. Maybe they got the name because the tails look so much bigger on a smaller body??? As for the "rust color" on the dorsal side of the tail.....like Bill said, most of the deer have rust colored tails so that would be expected anyway. It's all very interesting and I would love to see more research done on our beloved Coues deer, especially in Mexico, I think there's still a lot to learn about these deer!

 

I don't remember exactly what my buck scored, it was somewhere mid 90's. A very cool character type buck for sure.

[Guest super jumbo]

Thanks for all the replies fellas. I still dont think anyone has a clear cut answer though. I have never seen a deer that resembled the many fantail descriptions that i have heard of from others. I would agree with jim and others on this post that the most logical explanation for these sightings could easily be attributed to "dwarfism" or some genetic varience that is common to all species of animals. There are some really short people walking this earth and they are not considered some subspecies. Is the key deer from south florida considered a subspecies of whitetails or are they just dwarfs also.

[Rembrant]

The WT. deer in the northern states are large bodied. The WT. deer in the southern states are smaller. Our desert WT. deer are smaller yet. The size and other characteristics are a result of survival in certain environments.

I'm not a biologist, but let me take a guess; The northern deer are larger because they require more size/fat/hide to survive the bitter cold northern winters. The desert deer are smaller because the feed is different, they don't require large size to fight the cold, and being smaller probably helps in the heat and with lack of water. I do believe the Keys deer is it's own subspecies (race). Yet they are all the same species.

The whole "subspecies" thing is man's classification of noticable differences in the various races. So, what is a subspecies and what isn't, is subject to what the genious's in the ivory towers want to call them today, or tomorrow.

A practical application of all this classification is in the record books. Coues deer can't compete with northern whitetails in the record book, so it's good that the 'book' classifies them differently. In this sense, "subspecies" is important.

But they're still the same critter, or species, and always will be.

Mike

[billrquimby]

The WT. deer in the northern states are large bodied. The WT. deer in the southern states are smaller. Our desert WT. deer are smaller yet. The size and other characteristics are a result of survival in certain environments.

I'm not a biologist, but let me take a guess; The northern deer are larger because they require more size/fat/hide to survive the bitter cold northern winters. The desert deer are smaller because the feed is different, they don't require large size to fight the cold, and being smaller probably helps in the heat and with lack of water. I do believe the Keys deer is it's own subspecies (race). Yet they are all the same species.

The whole "subspecies" thing is man's classification of noticable differences in the various races. So, what is a subspecies and what isn't, is subject to what the genious's in the ivory towers want to call them today, or tomorrow.

A practical application of all this classification is in the record books. Coues deer can't compete with northern whitetails in the record book, so it's good that the 'book' classifies them differently. In this sense, "subspecies" is important.

But they're still the same critter, or species, and always will be.

Mike

 

Rembrandt:

 

What you describe is known as Bergmann's Law -- individuals of the same species will be larger the farther north they are found. It applies to whitetails, of course, but with a notable exception. The Columbia whitetail of Washington and Oregon is not much larger than our Coues deer and it is found at the same latitude as the largest of all whitetails, some of which can weigh up to four times more than it.

 

There's also what is known as Cope's Rule -- species tend to grow larger over time -- and Foster's (or "The Island") Rule --on islands, large species (such as deer) tend to be smaller while small species (such as mice and rats) will be larger. Exceptions can be found, and not every expert agrees with every so-called "law" or "rule."

 

Bergmann was correct in that the various subspecies/ecotypes/races of white-tailed deer typically do get smaller on average as their range approaches the Equator, but whitetails then grow larger the farther south one goes into South America. There is a zone on both sides of the Equator where deer have no established seasons for breeding or antler growing. Females can come into estrus and give birth at any time of year, and bucks can be found with or without antlers in every month.

 

Also, the whitetails, elk, moose, red deer and other deer from the northern hemisphere that were introduced to New Zealand and Australia in the 19th and early 20th centuries immediately changed their breeding and antler-growing seasons to follow the reversed seasons of the southern hemisphere. For example, elk and red deer that had rutted/roared in autumn (September-October) on this side of the equator, suddenly were doing it in the fall (April-May) down under. They didn't need any time at all to acclimate themselves to their new homes.

 

Bill Quimby

[BONECOLL3CTOR23]

This is a subject that i've got some experience with. After the research I've done I came to the conclusion it's just a form of dwarfism. Dwarfism is very rare but it occurs and there are many different causes of it. As far as I know, nobody knows exactly what causes it in nature but it's probably similar reasons why it occurs in humans.

 

 

My experience happened last year. The crazy part was that the ranch owner told me earlier that "Little" deer live in the high country on his ranch! I ignored the comment but later wished I had paid attention to him!

 

I shot a buck that appeared to have a huge frame when comparing it to his body size. I had to judge him thru my rifle scope at long range and felt confident that he was a huge framed buck in the very least and worthy of shooting.

 

It was the next morning when I was finally able to hike up to my buck (which was on the top of the mountain, in the "high" country!) and the ranch owner was with me. I'll never forget hearing him laugh out loud as I easily picked up the un-gutted buck with 1 hand!! He reminded me that he had forewarned me of the "Little" deer up high, and he was right! I've killed Javalina that were heavier than this buck! His body was very tiny yet this buck was an older buck with well worn teeth. In the pics I was sitting back a little bit but if you notice how big my hand is it'll give you some perspective. I doubt this buck was heavier than 50lbs, on the hoof!!!

 

 

 

 

We've killed several other deer from this same area, none were from the higher country but all the others were normal sized deer. I'm still very curious how that rancher knew there were "Little" deer up there, must've been more than this one! JIM>

COOLEST BUCK IVE EVER SEEN FEEL LUCKY MAN

[dsturla]

 

 

Rembrandt:

 

What you describe is known as Bergmann's Law -- individuals of the same species will be larger the farther north they are found. It applies to whitetails, of course, but with a notable exception. The Columbia whitetail of Washington and Oregon is not much larger than our Coues deer and it is found at the same latitude as the largest of all whitetails, some of which can weigh up to four times more than it.

...

 

Bill Quimby

 

Mr. Quimby,

Although Bergmann's law is not typically accepted these days in its classical sense, you are correct as it does pertain to White-tailed deer.

 

Bergmann generalized that homeotherm body size increases inversely with temperature, so that intraspecifically, body size increases lattitudinally. This over generalization has been "updated" several time over the past 150 years and is most recently referred to as "geographic gradient in body size".

[BeardownAZ]

I think the "dwarf" or "genetically" different coues are cool. I would rather shoot one of them then a regular buck. Just something out of the norm. I do remember my grandfather as a kid talking about miniature or dwarf deer down by the border units as he lived in Douglas and hunted those units. Always thought back and thought he just meant Coues once I got older and understood deer more. Now I think he was talking about these deer. Interesting.

[1uofacat]

I've heard of "dwarf whitetails" too, and subscribe to it... and agree w/BeardownAZ (would rather take one than a "regular" buck any day).