Time to Pick a Fight

[Coach]

.308 Nut, can you expand a little on the "button" rifling? The reason I ask is, Savage barrels are advertised as button-rifled barrels. While I never really knew what that meant, I've found Savage barrels to be very accurate, and attributed that to the button rifling without really knowing how or why it is different from standard rifling.

[308Nut]

.308 Nut, can you expand a little on the "button" rifling? The reason I ask is, Savage barrels are advertised as button-rifled barrels. While I never really knew what that meant, I've found Savage barrels to be very accurate, and attributed that to the button rifling without really knowing how or why it is different from standard rifling.

 

A button is a tool shaped like the indside you your rifle barrel only in reverse. They call this tool a 'button'. Dont quote me but I think it is made out of either tool steel or carbide. It gets pulled through a smooth bore a little bit smaller than the caliber diameter that the barrel will be and this button 'displaces' the steel to form the grooves. It removes no metal. The lands are pretty much left with the same diameter as the original bore. After it gets pulled, the barrel gets turned down to the desired contour, fluted if specified by the customer.

 

While these processes take place the internal diameter will grow a bit. This is why they start out with a smaller diameter to begin with coupled with the fact that when they get hand lapped, the ID also grows as a minor amount of steel gets removed from the lapping proccess. They guage the barrel before and during the lapping proccess and lap accordingly. They are actually lapped into specs. Any of the very good barrel makers tolerences are .0001" (one ten thousandths of an inch) uniformity from breach to muzzle. They typically make the very end of the muzzle just a scosh tighter than the rest of the bore.

 

Somewhere during all of this, they 'stress relieve' the barrel. Some 'double stress relieve' them. Most makers are VERY tight lipped about when, where and how they do this.

 

Button pulling IMHO is a far better way to make a barrel than hammer forging. Maybe hammer forging isnt such a bad proccess as it is how the high productivity manufacturers go about it. They come onto and off of an assembly line at very fast rates. I have looked at brand new Remington barrels with a borescope and as much as I love Remingtons, I have to say the inside of their barrels look like corn on the cob. Looking at custom barrels is like looking at an upper end Mercedes or BMW versus a Ford Fiesta. It is truely night and day difference.

 

There are many arguments as to which is better. Cut or button. Cut barrels definately take more lapping to smooth them out. Button pulled barrels are very smooth to begin with. They are probably smoother when the get pulled than after they are lapped. Barrels that are too smooth actually copper foul much worse than when they are lapped with the right grit. If they are too rough they foul bad and if they are too smooth they foul even worse. This is because when you have a ultra mirror finish, there is more surface area that 'grips' the bullet. The result is copper fouling. After using too much JB bore cleaner in too many barrels it has become evident that this principal is true. JB actually is the best cleaner IMO, but it also 'polishes' the metal. After it starts to polish the bore, they definately copper foul alot more than when they are new. I have sworn off using JB. Both Hart and Lilja (both regarded as two of the very best in the buisness) do NOT recommend the use of JB or similar products like Flitz or Iosso. They dont damage the bore so to speak, they just polish them. Unfortunately, that leads to more copper fouling.

 

The bottom line is when it comes to accuracy, you would not be able to tell the difference between a cut barrel or a button barrel by shooting it. It is hard to go wrong with either as long as it comes from a top end maker. Lilja, Hart, Bartlien, Kreiger, Rock Creek, Broughton, Brux all make premium barrels. I like Lilja and Hart and in that order. I typically end up with a Hart though. They deliver very quick, they are awesome people to deal with and they dont offer standard, match and select match like many others from defects during the manufacturing procces. The barrel either turns out as a premium barrel or ot goes into the recycle barrel plain and simple. There are no second best barrels. I like that approach and mentality. Dan Lilja is also an awesome guy to deal with.

 

I hope that helps!!

[sjvcon]

Hart has installation and full smithing services too...I don't think Lilja does.

 

Didn't know that about button vs cut...makes sense though. I might rethink my next barrel...was going to go

Krieger...that might change.

[roninflag]

two-seven-dee, two-seven-dee, two-seven-dee. well, actually anything but a 7mm/08 is ok. Lark.

i suggest a 6.5 -284. i shoot often in the f-class matches in phx and mesa. they are the perfect warm up for rifle hunting coues whitetailes. i have never shot against a . 270 or a browning a-bolt. i would like to. grin

[LCconvert]

two-seven-dee, two-seven-dee, two-seven-dee. well, actually anything but a 7mm/08 is ok. Lark.

i suggest a 6.5 -284. i shoot often in the f-class matches in phx and mesa. they are the perfect warm up for rifle hunting coues whitetailes. i have never shot against a . 270 or a browning a-bolt. i would like to. grin

 

Well I just bought a 6.5 rem mag and looking forward to shooting it. The only drawback with this particular rifle is it is a short action so I will be limited to how far out I can seat the bullets. Due to the high BC of these bullets I think this will make a great long range gun...I hope.

 

Anyone else like the .264 calibers for coues?

[billrquimby]

two-seven-dee, two-seven-dee, two-seven-dee. well, actually anything but a 7mm/08 is ok. Lark.

i suggest a 6.5 -284. i shoot often in the f-class matches in phx and mesa. they are the perfect warm up for rifle hunting coues whitetailes. i have never shot against a . 270 or a browning a-bolt. i would like to. grin

 

Well I just bought a 6.5 rem mag and looking forward to shooting it. The only drawback with this particular rifle is it is a short action so I will be limited to how far out I can seat the bullets. Due to the high BC of these bullets I think this will make a great long range gun...I hope.

 

Anyone else like the .264 calibers for coues?

 

I have a Remington 700 in 6.5 RM, and love it. Nothing will replace my favorite 7 mm RM for game from jackrabbit size to moose, but shooting the 6.5 is a pleasure and its the ballistics are impressive. So far, all I've killed with it was the small mule deer I shot last year. One shot. One deer.

 

Bill Quimby

[.270]

7mm/08's might make a decent door stop or you could use barrel for a jack handle or pry bar. or screw off the barrel and screw on a .243. they are completely unethical as a hunting caliber. they are also the only gun endorsed by peta, greenpeace, the sierra club and sarah brady. i don't shoot competively because if i did, nobody else would show up because they would know they wuz shootin' for second place. so whatever other kinda guns ya use don't really matter. just keep it in mind that "i'm glad Lark ain't here". i quit even goin' to turkey shoots because when i showed up they'd just give me a turkey and wouldn't even let me shoot. then everbody else'd shoot for another, smaller turkey. i also don't shoot competitively because i'd hafta build a new house just for the trophys. and look what it'd do the gun industry. they'd only make .270's. the only argument would be "what kinda .270 do you have?" so actually, i'm bein' civic minded too. look at all the folks it'd put outta work. ammo makers, barrel builders, shooting writers, armories. heck the russian would just shoot .270's.

[hunter72]

6.5-06 imp with 140 bergers at 3100 works well.

[biglakejake]

space shuttle pilots say they got their wings flying a flying brick. i got mine shooting a 1952 winchester. i'm good out to about 600 with walnut stock, necksized 30/06 cases, reloader 19 and 180gr nosler partition bullets.

no rubber stocks none o' the time...

lee

[LCconvert]

 

I have a Remington 700 in 6.5 RM, and love it. Nothing will replace my favorite 7 mm RM for game from jackrabbit size to moose, but shooting the 6.5 is a pleasure and its the ballistics are impressive. So far, all I've killed with it was the small mule deer I shot last year. One shot. One deer.

 

Bill Quimby

 

 

Bill, is your 700 a short or long action. I have a short action and have been looking for a good load. The short action requires seating the bullet in pretty deep.

[257 STW]

had my 257 Weatherby ultralight punched out to a 257 STW & love it

[STOMP442]

Elk sized game I would probably go with the 7mm Mag. Anything smaller give me a .250-3000 Ackley.

[ruffcountry]

A few years I ago picked up a 26 in barreled mod 700 on sale in 7 rem mag and I like it even more than I thought I would . Ive taken 3 coues with the 7 rem mag , 2 of em at about 50 yds , but Im pretty comfortable with it and Superformance ammo out to about 500 yds. Before I got the 7 I used 300 wby with 165 grainers , always wanted to try 257 wby .

[WACem44]

7mm stw all day any day!

[Condor]

I shoot a 300 Win Mag and love it, love the range, velocity, and bullet versatility. It also can reach out and touch. I also shoot a 257 Wby Mag and love that too. Almost no recoil and the velocity is insane. From 300 to 400 is like a 6 inch drop. Future calibers I would like try are 270 Wby Mag, 6.5x55 SM, and 6.5-284.