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Jay Scott

Sportsmans Input Sought by ConserveandProtectAZ.org-Unit wide Raffle and Auction Tags

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Here is an update from our meeting last night.

 

I'll give you all a little background and I hope it helps clarify.

 

When we(ADBSS) and other groups learned the HSUS was going to file for the petition to get the cat hunting ban on the ballot we took action. The plan to combat the initiative was developed by the group of folks that are now on the board of Conserve and Protect. Conserve and Protect was not even an organization when this all came down the pipe many months ago, it was simply a group of guys from miscellaneous organizations putting together a plan to fight HSUS. We, along with some other groups agreed to help with the financial burden of that initial plan. When we had to take action in order to try and fight, we did, and we won. Conserve and Protect hadn't even been formed, but the guys that developed the plan now sit on the board of C&P. . Make no mistake, the folks that now are on the board of C&P had an instrumental part in fighting and beating HSUS.

 

Moving to today....

 

Conserve and Protect was just officially(paperwork finalized) started a few weeks, maybe a month ago, not exactly sure. They have now formed their board and are putting together the plan for what's next. They are truly a work in progress and we intend to be engaged in that conversation. They came to our board meeting last night to inform us where they are and what the next step is.

 

Some organizations have financially committed to the next step but we did not feel as a board that we had enough information and the next step is still in the planning stages. We as a board understand the importance of what comes next. We as a collective group of hunters cannot be as unprepared to fight HSUS or other groups as we recently were. We believe HSUS will be back and we need to have a plan already in place.

 

I will only briefly try to articulate the next step. It is basically a two stage approach. Please direct your questions about the Conserve and Protect plan to the info email they have provided.

 

Stage 1 - Raise money to educate the public on the importance of Wildlife Management. This is where the potential use of tag raffles and auctions come in. The funds from the Tags would be used for this cause. The money would not be held within Conserve and Protect rather it would be similar to the HPC process.

 

Stage 2 - Build resources within Conserve and Protect to fight . Have a group in place that is able to do the things needed that critter groups such as ours cannot do. ADBSS is concerned about Sheep, AES is concerned about Elk, ADA is concerned about deer.... critter groups are not able to fight the "HSUS" type pf political fights, neither is AZGFD.

 

If you do not know how the plan came together to defeat HSUS, I challenge that you are not involved enough. Only one person showed up last night that doesn't attend the meetings regularly.

 

Call me with any questions or comments, I hope this information is helpful.

 

Andy St John

ADBSS President

602-881-0610

Please stop saying well only one person came to the meeting. It helps when the meeting isnt announced hours before and then the meeting is actually moved forward an hour. If they are wanting transparency their two first meeting have been a secret and that doesn't look good starting off.

 

I agree that we need a funding source. But we don't need auction tags to get there. Raffling off tags will get the money needed. If there is an auction tag take one of them from the already two per species we have. One can go to the habitat like it does already and one can go to this new fund. As soon as more auction tags are suggested noone is going to want that because that was the whole reason behind the tag grab last time. Now a lot of the same people that did it last time are a part of it again but saying it's different this time. Just hard to trust any of it at this time.

 

Post up the next meeting that we actually have more than 3 hours to plan to get there and you'll get plenty of people to show up and ask tough questions.

Your on Coues 500 times a day and cant take time to look at their websites for information? What am I missing? You can update your Facebook status and Instagram every minute of the day but cant do a little research into the conservation groups for a sport you so dearly love? Sounds a little narsasistic to me.
bro stop while you're behind. I've posted 6 posts on fb and Instagram this year. Your wife has me beat just this week. Regarding this subject I had no idea asking questions and talking to Dave three times yesterday for an hour each time was such a bad thing. Also didnt know it was my responsibility to have to go to their page to find out when meetings are. Oh wait even if I had they didnt post anything about it. I know you've got a little bit of money so I can see why you're all for this tag deal without questioning it but those of us that wont be able to afford these tags like to ask questions about what's going on. All I've done is pass on info regarding what I've heard from Dave and all you've done is comment to guys asking questions that they're idiots and kids that don't understand. Not exactly helpful.
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Here is an update from our meeting last night.

 

I'll give you all a little background and I hope it helps clarify.

 

When we(ADBSS) and other groups learned the HSUS was going to file for the petition to get the cat hunting ban on the ballot we took action. The plan to combat the initiative was developed by the group of folks that are now on the board of Conserve and Protect. Conserve and Protect was not even an organization when this all came down the pipe many months ago, it was simply a group of guys from miscellaneous organizations putting together a plan to fight HSUS. We, along with some other groups agreed to help with the financial burden of that initial plan. When we had to take action in order to try and fight, we did, and we won. Conserve and Protect hadn't even been formed, but the guys that developed the plan now sit on the board of C&P. . Make no mistake, the folks that now are on the board of C&P had an instrumental part in fighting and beating HSUS.

 

Moving to today....

 

Conserve and Protect was just officially(paperwork finalized) started a few weeks, maybe a month ago, not exactly sure. They have now formed their board and are putting together the plan for what's next. They are truly a work in progress and we intend to be engaged in that conversation. They came to our board meeting last night to inform us where they are and what the next step is.

 

Some organizations have financially committed to the next step but we did not feel as a board that we had enough information and the next step is still in the planning stages. We as a board understand the importance of what comes next. We as a collective group of hunters cannot be as unprepared to fight HSUS or other groups as we recently were. We believe HSUS will be back and we need to have a plan already in place.

 

I will only briefly try to articulate the next step. It is basically a two stage approach. Please direct your questions about the Conserve and Protect plan to the info email they have provided.

 

Stage 1 - Raise money to educate the public on the importance of Wildlife Management. This is where the potential use of tag raffles and auctions come in. The funds from the Tags would be used for this cause. The money would not be held within Conserve and Protect rather it would be similar to the HPC process.

 

Stage 2 - Build resources within Conserve and Protect to fight . Have a group in place that is able to do the things needed that critter groups such as ours cannot do. ADBSS is concerned about Sheep, AES is concerned about Elk, ADA is concerned about deer.... critter groups are not able to fight the "HSUS" type pf political fights, neither is AZGFD.

 

If you do not know how the plan came together to defeat HSUS, I challenge that you are not involved enough. Only one person showed up last night that doesn't attend the meetings regularly.

 

Call me with any questions or comments, I hope this information is helpful.

 

Andy St John

ADBSS President

602-881-0610

Please stop saying well only one person came to the meeting. It helps when the meeting isnt announced hours before and then the meeting is actually moved forward an hour. If they are wanting transparency their two first meeting have been a secret and that doesn't look good starting off.

 

I agree that we need a funding source. But we don't need auction tags to get there. Raffling off tags will get the money needed. If there is an auction tag take one of them from the already two per species we have. One can go to the habitat like it does already and one can go to this new fund. As soon as more auction tags are suggested noone is going to want that because that was the whole reason behind the tag grab last time. Now a lot of the same people that did it last time are a part of it again but saying it's different this time. Just hard to trust any of it at this time.

 

Post up the next meeting that we actually have more than 3 hours to plan to get there and you'll get plenty of people to show up and ask tough questions.

Your on Coues 500 times a day and cant take time to look at their websites for information? What am I missing? You can update your Facebook status and Instagram every minute of the day but cant do a little research into the conservation groups for a sport you so dearly love? Sounds a little narsasistic to me.

 

Maybe im an idiot, but where on their website does it say anything about their meetings they are holding?

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Bonecollector, shhh. . Just go with it and trust them remember? Shedhunter said so. Don't ask questions and don't try and figure out when their meetings are. They know what's best for us even if we don't know it yet. It's the only way.

 

But back in reality yes you're correct nothing has been sent to anyone regarding meetings nor has it been posted. I'm waiting for the first one to be announced and I'll be there assuming they give ample time to prepare to get there. My mind is not made up yet but these meetings and how they treat our ideas is gonna be the real deciding factor on what their intentions are.

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Bonecollector, shhh. . Just go with it and trust them remember? Shedhunter said so. Don't ask questions and don't try and figure out when their meetings are. They know what's best for us even if we don't know it yet. It's the only way.

I believe the only meetings they have had about this have been with the conservation groups to gather information from them so they could gather their input to come up with the general idea before getting public input.

 

I expect there will be many meetings posted in the future for questions and input

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Wolves in sheeps clothing. Do something good to trap the suckers in to passing it. Do something good and you and your rich buddies can buy any tag you want every year. They probably helped HSUS start the bill to begin with so they could step up and shut it down. I for one will not buy the fried ice cream.

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I dont think that I need a great deal of detail to know how to feel about this. I am willing to listen to anything but this is all I think we really need to know:

 

1. Does the initiative redirect tags from the AZGFD administrated draw process to an outside organization(s) who will sell them to raise additional funds?

 

If the answer is yes, then my question would be how does AZGFD plan to deal with the loss of said funds? My guess would be that they will raise tag fees to make up the difference.

 

2. What is being done with the funds that AZGFD cannot do themselves right now? Education? Title 17 does not restrict state funds from being used for this purpose, AZGFD can and does use their dollars for educating the general public (ever see those giant billboards with the bighorn sheep on them?). When a political fight comes up, I understand funds are needed to fight that, but that does not occur every year, so what happens in the meantime?

 

3. Are there other means to raise these funds, that do not require using wildlife as the medium for raising dollars. For instance, most political lobbies are suppprted by the industries they serve. So could the outdoor industry provide goods or services which could be used to raise funds? Are we as sportsman willing to pony up and provide financial suppport?

 

I must say that I do not believe I can be convinced that this is a good idea. But I will listen to what is being proposed. I believe that selling more tags or opportunities for tags to those with more financial means feels like a perversion of the North American Model. The presentation of the initiative feels backhanded to me and that may be feeding my uneasiness. But it appears to me that although this would provide funds for the political fights like we had with HSUS it certainly is not the only way to raise money for these fights, and the bill certainly provides an added benefit to those who have money and those who have businesses that serve those who have money. Selfishly, I could probably afford a few more raffle tickets than most, so I may get a few more tags this way, but I agree, using state resources to raise money for political action does not feel ethical to me.

 

Will be interesting to see how this shakes out. And please if anything I have stated is inaccurate please feel free to correct it.

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It makes me sick that we as a collective group seem to have the need to personally attack people without gathering all of the facts to formulate an educated opinion. I am currently undecided on this new group and the plans they are looking into even though I fervently fought most of the same group in 2012. I do believe there is a valid and urgent need for some type of group or funds to be able to react and fight for our heritage and rights when things come up and our AZGFD's hands are tied. I applaud Jay's efforts in getting the information out there as soon as he heard about it and some other members here who are taking the time to make phone calls and gather information. I will continue to mull everything over and dig up as much information as I can prior to coming up with my own opinion and throwing my support one way or another, I would hope that all true sportsmen would do the same.

 

Again not replying to your post Flatlander, you bring up some valid questions that I would like answered as well.

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The bottom line here guys is that they will be back in 2 years to get this on the ballot again. If we don't somehow come to agreement and come up with $5000000 to fight them then we will lose the ability not only to hunt mountain lions and bobcats but to also never be able to go on a premium strip hunt as we will lose the majority of our deer and Elk tags because of mountain lion predation. You could also kiss most of the sheep tags goodbye. This will be worse than the 1994 initiative to ban trapping. We have 10 times the number of coyotes in this state today then we did the day before that passed. Think of how many Deer tags we could have now if we had 10% the number of coyotes. As to the loss of 150 to 200 Deer tags to go towards a raffle, think of it the same as taxes. If you cut the rate of taxes you will increase government revenue due to the stimulus that it creates. What I mean is if we can auction slash raffle off 200 tags, the amount of money that that will generate to conserve wildlife including Predator control, we will effectively have a net increase in tag numbers. Don't believe me? look at the tag numbers today and Utah versus what they were 10 years ago.

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The bottom line here guys is that they will be back in 2 years to get this on the ballot again. If we don't somehow come to agreement and come up with $5000000 to fight them then we will lose the ability not only to hunt mountain lions and bobcats but to also never be able to go on a premium strip hunt as we will lose the majority of our deer and Elk tags because of mountain lion predation. You could also kiss most of the sheep tags goodbye. This will be worse than the 1994 initiative to ban trapping. We have 10 times the number of coyotes in this state today then we did the day before that passed. Think of how many Deer tags we could have now if we had 10% the number of coyotes. As to the loss of 150 to 200 Deer tags to go towards a raffle, think of it the same as taxes. If you cut the rate of taxes you will increase government revenue due to the stimulus that it creates. What I mean is if we can auction slash raffle off 200 tags, the amount of money that that will generate to conserve wildlife including Predator control, we will effectively have a net increase in tag numbers. Don't believe me? look at the tag numbers today and Utah versus what they were 10 years ago.

I completely understand this point of view and it has some merits. However how do we know HSUS will be back in 2 years? There is no way of knowing that first and foremost. Second, why is 5 million the magic number? What if after all this we still lose? Do we get the tags back in 2 years or will they ask for more tags so they can get more money? Obviously they will want more tags, plain and simple. Furthermore, Just because lion hunting is banned does not mean that they overrun the state. AZGFD will still have the ability to kill them when and where needed. California kills hundreds of lions each year even with their ban. As far as Utah, they give out literally hundreds or thousands of auction, raffle, and landowners tags every year as they have alot more game and habitat than AZ does. The one unique thing about Arizona, that separates it from most surrounding states, is that is has no landowner tags and very few auction/raffle tags. This is more about letting the rich guy that flies his leer jet in from Naples, FL the ability to get out of line, pay 30k, and hunt elk every year in the best elk state in the US. The guides and rich non-residents love this proposal as it totally circumvents the draw process. The rest of us get fewer tags and no guarantee it will even make a difference.

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The bottom line here guys is that they will be back in 2 years to get this on the ballot again. If we don't somehow come to agreement and come up with $5000000 to fight them then we will lose the ability not only to hunt mountain lions and bobcats but to also never be able to go on a premium strip hunt as we will lose the majority of our deer and Elk tags because of mountain lion predation. You could also kiss most of the sheep tags goodbye. This will be worse than the 1994 initiative to ban trapping. We have 10 times the number of coyotes in this state today then we did the day before that passed. Think of how many Deer tags we could have now if we had 10% the number of coyotes. As to the loss of 150 to 200 Deer tags to go towards a raffle, think of it the same as taxes. If you cut the rate of taxes you will increase government revenue due to the stimulus that it creates. What I mean is if we can auction slash raffle off 200 tags, the amount of money that that will generate to conserve wildlife including Predator control, we will effectively have a net increase in tag numbers. Don't believe me? look at the tag numbers today and Utah versus what they were 10 years ago.

I completely understand this point of view and it has some merits. However how do we know HSUS will be back in 2 years? There is no way of knowing that first and foremost. Second, why is 5 million the magic number? What if after all this we still lose? Do we get the tags back in 2 years or will they ask for more tags so they can get more money? Obviously they will want more tags, plain and simple. Furthermore, Just because lion hunting is banned does not mean that they overrun the state. AZGFD will still have the ability to kill them when and where needed. California kills hundreds of lions each year even with their ban. As far as Utah, they give out literally hundreds or thousands of auction, raffle, and landowners tags every year as they have alot more game and habitat than AZ does. The one unique thing about Arizona, that separates it from most surrounding states, is that is has no landowner tags and very few auction/raffle tags. This is more about letting the rich guy that flies his leer jet in from Naples, FL the ability to get out of line, pay 30k, and hunt elk every year in the best elk state in the US. The guides and rich non-residents love this proposal as it totally circumvents the draw process. The rest of us get fewer tags and no guarantee it will even make a difference.
That's kind of how I'm seeing it. When does it stop? When we still lose do we give it up and go back to how it is? Of course not we end up auctioning more tags because we need more money. If it were a set number from the beginning that wasnt too many and couldnt go up and they were all raffle tags I'd be cool with it. No auction tags period.

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I totally understand about being upset not being able to hunt deer because you have fewer tags. The Humane Societies end goal is to stop hunting all together! Lion hunting is a foot in the door if you ban lion hunting deer and Elk numbers go down pretty soon it's easy to convince the non-hunting public that there are not enough animals to be able to hunt therefore we should stop all hunting. I definitely do not want to demonized the well-off. I am not one of them however I aspire to be one. Just because a guy can afford to go hunting and pump more money into wildlife and conservation than I ever will be able to does not make him a bad guy in my opinion. If the same guy that pays for a tag wants to give my state a few million dollars over the course of 10 years or so for wildlife and habitat more power to them. there are no guarantees in life, obviously we cannot guarantee that they won't ask for more tags we can't guarantee that this will make a difference, I can guarantee that if we do absolutely nothing but bicker at each other we will do nothing to help wildlife and the future of hunting in Arizona. I don't ee the harm at all in giving up a few tags that I will still have an opportunity to obtain, in order to have a voice against the anti hunters. How do we know they will be back?? Liberal ideas never die. They are very good at keeping focus and making their objective reality.

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I am yet to be convinced that every hunter in the state should have to sacrifice the opportunity to hunt or take their kids hunting in order to get some rich guys money. The facts are that all of us should contribute to the level we are able and should not do so at the expense of another.

 

I could not in good conscience use my dollars to take opportunity away from another and call it conservation.

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Flatlander is spot on. Its about not screwing over the little man in order for the rich man to be able to hunt az prime tags each year. Its unethical plain and simple. Its the North American Game Model. Not a perversion of it, how can anyone think selling off a wild game animal to the highest bidder is morally or ethically right? Especially when they would be stealing from the residents of Az to do so?

 

How does HSUS get funding? How does every other non-profit get funding? Donations and fund raising. Quit taking the tag grab approach as an excuse for your BS!

 

Many of the same people who support this type of tag grab would also have no problem privatizing the entire state of Az to landowners. Az is and always will be the best state for public land hunting because we hbe no landowner taga and the majority is public land owned by all of us...same as out wild game.

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LOTS of opinions and information (or mis-information ;) ) out there on this in a very short time!

 

I spoke with Dave from the Arizona Deer Association this morning to get his take, and hence purportedly the ADA's take. At the end of that call I still had not changed my opinion regarding the auctioning off of tags, and I told him that. But, I definitely appreciated him sharing his thoughts and passion on the subject.

 

For me, I am just vehemently opposed to the idea of auction tags. Partly because I see the chatter regarding the situation in Utah. Partly because of the bias I have based on some of the exact same folks pushing the same type of idea in 2012. Partly because the spirit of auctioning off the right to hunt to the highest bidder just doesn't seem to sit well with me. All of these reasons are simply my personal opinion, and mean a lot to me but likely no one else.

 

I do however, agree that it could be of great value to have a funding source to help lobby/publicize/'educate' on issues that affect hunting. My vote would be to take some of the tags strictly for raffle purposes (NOT auction). For all I care, take 1% of the tags. Sell raffle tickets and have some legit org gather as much money as possible from that. Use the money according to the bylaws laid down, with the goal of protecting our right to hunt as we always have. An additional idea is what Flatlander mentioned; Have industry groups providing lobby/support money!

 

Amazing the passion here. My advice is for ALL to get involved and make your voices heard, one way or the other. For or against, make your voice heard. NOT just here on this outstanding forum, but to the people and in the meetings that count! The meetings and discussions down the road that are sure to come as this thing works through the process.

 

Good luck to us all!!!

 

S.

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