Sportsmans Input Sought by ConserveandProtectAZ.org-Unit wide Raffle and Auction Tags

[krp]

Weird, I make statements on this issue that haven't been refuted. Only sneaky thing may be that it was me that asked Pete at the ADA meeting but that's all history on this site.

 

Kent

[Flatlander]

I was there. The C&P crowd did not seem real receptive to people saying they were not in support of the idea. Dissenting opinions were characterized as "Criticism". There is a meeting at Bass Pro fine gun room Monday as stated above.

 

Didn't seem to me that there was much brainstorming for new ideas, although several commenters provided suggestions. I have a few more ideas. In the meantime, we need to get out and speak up. Please fill up the meeting on Monday. Remember that we cannot be at each others throats, rather we need to be appreciative of those who carried the flag during the HSUS fight and who do the bulk of the heavy lifting in the state's conservation efforts. Instead, we need to come with solutions and be willing to pitch in to help with those solutions.

 

Ultimately, I am not sure that everyone at C&P cares what we have to say, but I hope to be proven wrong. And in the meantime, I will take my voice elsewhere. The commission meeting in May will be important, the commissioners need to see that there is support, otherwise we are left to be represented by those who do speak up.

 

Hope to see everyone on Monday.

[bonecollector777]

I was there. The C&P crowd did not seem real receptive to people saying they were not in support of the idea. Dissenting opinions were characterized as "Criticism". There is a meeting at Bass Pro fine gun room Monday as stated above.

 

Didn't seem to me that there was much brainstorming for new ideas, although several commenters provided suggestions. I have a few more ideas. In the meantime, we need to get out and speak up. Please fill up the meeting on Monday. Remember that we cannot be at each others throats, rather we need to be appreciative of those who carried the flag during the HSUS fight and who do the bulk of the heavy lifting in the state's conservation efforts. Instead, we need to come with solutions and be willing to pitch in to help with those solutions.

 

Ultimately, I am not sure that everyone at C&P cares what we have to say, but I hope to be proven wrong. And in the meantime, I will take my voice elsewhere. The commission meeting in May will be important, the commissioners need to see that there is support, otherwise we are left to be represented by those who do speak up.

 

Hope to see everyone on Monday.

I'll be there Monday. My brother said he showed up a little late tonight. Said any questioning of motives or disagreements was treated very defensively rather than looked at as trying to come up with different ideas. Said the guy that came up with the $2 habitat stamp had the board stumped like they never thought that was a possibility (or they dont want it a possibility) add a $5 stamp or license increase on all licenses and they'll have money coming out of their ears and the tags can be left alone. If they insist on the tags its obvious their one mission is the tags and only the tags.

[krp]

I never referenced a 6 year old post on this thread, go back and read my posts on this thread, I have laid out and referenced why this is a bad idea and alternate funding if it is necessary.

 

I'm only answerable to the black part of my posts, anything you read in the white part is on you.

 

Kent

[Big or Bust]

Krp is about as good a guy as they come - if you are a sportsman, Kent is on your side. That's a fact....

[krp]

I truly try to make specific statements of fact or reasonable logic, and try not to single one post or person out, though Dave pressed some issues so it was more of a one on one with him. I don't expect everyone to understand what I'm saying but I'm not asking questions, I'm putting a very specific line of thought out for others to think about.

 

I also expect to pissoff some folks and don't care.

 

Kent

[Flatlander]

 

I was there. The C&P crowd did not seem real receptive to people saying they were not in support of the idea. Dissenting opinions were characterized as "Criticism". There is a meeting at Bass Pro fine gun room Monday as stated above.

 

Didn't seem to me that there was much brainstorming for new ideas, although several commenters provided suggestions. I have a few more ideas. In the meantime, we need to get out and speak up. Please fill up the meeting on Monday. Remember that we cannot be at each others throats, rather we need to be appreciative of those who carried the flag during the HSUS fight and who do the bulk of the heavy lifting in the state's conservation efforts. Instead, we need to come with solutions and be willing to pitch in to help with those solutions.

 

Ultimately, I am not sure that everyone at C&P cares what we have to say, but I hope to be proven wrong. And in the meantime, I will take my voice elsewhere. The commission meeting in May will be important, the commissioners need to see that there is support, otherwise we are left to be represented by those who do speak up.

 

Hope to see everyone on Monday.

I'll be there Monday. My brother said he showed up a little late tonight. Said any questioning of motives or disagreements was treated very defensively rather than looked at as trying to come up with different ideas. Said the guy that came up with the $2 habitat stamp had the board stumped like they never thought that was a possibility (or they dont want it a possibility) add a $5 stamp or license increase on all licenses and they'll have money coming out of their ears and the tags can be left alone. If they insist on the tags its obvious their one mission is the tags and only the tags.

 

 

Who was your brother? The habitat stamp idea works. I will say that I don't think that everyone on C&P is in it to get more tags to rich people, but I do believe the rich people have them persuaded.

 

The question asked if I opposed the current raffle / auction model, I don't know that I have ever considered it because it has always existed in my memory. After some thought my question is this, where does it stop? We could certainly raise more money for conservation if we auctioned every tag to the highest bidder but then our model would cease to exist. I do not believe that the integrity of the model is worth sacrificing for any mount of money. I believe there are other ways.

[krp]

I suggested here that a 5 dollar added fee per application, education fee, at around 300,000 apps could raise the money.

 

But a 2 or 3 dollar license fee increase adding fishing would also do it.

 

Pittman Robinson funds should be the first look.

 

Kent

[stanley]

 

 

I was there. The C&P crowd did not seem real receptive to people saying they were not in support of the idea. Dissenting opinions were characterized as "Criticism". There is a meeting at Bass Pro fine gun room Monday as stated above.

 

Didn't seem to me that there was much brainstorming for new ideas, although several commenters provided suggestions. I have a few more ideas. In the meantime, we need to get out and speak up. Please fill up the meeting on Monday. Remember that we cannot be at each others throats, rather we need to be appreciative of those who carried the flag during the HSUS fight and who do the bulk of the heavy lifting in the state's conservation efforts. Instead, we need to come with solutions and be willing to pitch in to help with those solutions.

 

Ultimately, I am not sure that everyone at C&P cares what we have to say, but I hope to be proven wrong. And in the meantime, I will take my voice elsewhere. The commission meeting in May will be important, the commissioners need to see that there is support, otherwise we are left to be represented by those who do speak up.

 

Hope to see everyone on Monday.

I'll be there Monday. My brother said he showed up a little late tonight. Said any questioning of motives or disagreements was treated very defensively rather than looked at as trying to come up with different ideas. Said the guy that came up with the $2 habitat stamp had the board stumped like they never thought that was a possibility (or they dont want it a possibility) add a $5 stamp or license increase on all licenses and they'll have money coming out of their ears and the tags can be left alone. If they insist on the tags its obvious their one mission is the tags and only the tags.

 

 

Who was your brother? The habitat stamp idea works. I will say that I don't think that everyone on C&P is in it to get more tags to rich people, but I do believe the rich people have them persuaded.

 

The question asked if I opposed the current raffle / auction model, I don't know that I have ever considered it because it has always existed in my memory. After some thought my question is this, where does it stop? We could certainly raise more money for conservation if we auctioned every tag to the highest bidder but then our model would cease to exist. I do not believe that the integrity of the model is worth sacrificing for any mount of money. I believe there are other ways.

 

 

I was there, and I'll be there on Monday (Good to see you Flatlander.... You too, azcouesandelk.). BC777, I'm guessing your brother was the one who came in about 1/2 way through (with his wife or girlfriend?). Anyway, I didn't get a chance or take time to shake many hands. Will try harder to connect with guys on Monday. I think it is important for those who show-up to meet and connect (possibly to help organize in the future...).

 

I liked the idea of $2 (or $1 or $5....). Earlier in the meeting, they indicated that there is some kind of cap that the department has on their ability to raise the overall cost of a license. That would be one of the only possible barriers to adding that premium to the license. (But the sentiment was that the department likely still has head-room under current legislation to raise the cost a bit...). My question for them was if they raise the money via a 'stamp' or 'tax/levy' on each license, what are the laws/regulations regarding how that money can//will be spent. No matter how the money is raised, I am very interested in understanding the guidelines or rules that would govern specifically how the money would be spent.

 

Another conclusion I came to in my mind is that while pondering the discussion, it occurred to me that 'education' might not be enough to really make much of a difference anyway. Honestly, there are so many liberal or 'passive' (non hunting) citizens in the state, that if HSUS comes again with a strong push, just getting a bunch of educational PR out there honestly might really not do much at all to sway the general public. I can see it solidifying the hunting populations passion, but the key is getting average 'joe public' to side with hunters if/when HUSU or any other organization comes back with a push to ban any kind of hunting (cat or otherwise...). I'm just pessimistic that enough of the general public could be swayed with an education/PR push. My feeling is that money should be raised somehow, and controlled by an organization outside of the G&F. That way the org would not be bound by the same rules/regulations as the Department. Possibly freeing-up money to hire lobbying firms, petition firms, etc. as opposed to just spending the money on 'education/PR' and hoping to sway average joe citizen.

 

I hope the group takes more time to entertain some different ideas (like the ones that Flatlander listed....). At this time, I am still opposed to the raffle/auction idea. This is based partially just because in my gut I think it's wrong to auction off the right to hunt to the highest bidder, and partially because I am concerned about oversight and whether it would even make a difference if used on 'education'.

 

Like I said, I will be there Monday! I hope more guys will show-up.

 

S.

[cjl2010]

I never referenced a 6 year old post on this thread, go back and read my posts on this thread, I have laid out and referenced why this is a bad idea and alternate funding if it is necessary.

 

I'm only answerable to the black part of my posts, anything you read in the white part is on you.

 

Kent

You didnt reference the post correct, but you keep bringing up what you did 6 years ago.

[bonecollector777]

 

 

 

I was there. The C&P crowd did not seem real receptive to people saying they were not in support of the idea. Dissenting opinions were characterized as "Criticism". There is a meeting at Bass Pro fine gun room Monday as stated above.

 

Didn't seem to me that there was much brainstorming for new ideas, although several commenters provided suggestions. I have a few more ideas. In the meantime, we need to get out and speak up. Please fill up the meeting on Monday. Remember that we cannot be at each others throats, rather we need to be appreciative of those who carried the flag during the HSUS fight and who do the bulk of the heavy lifting in the state's conservation efforts. Instead, we need to come with solutions and be willing to pitch in to help with those solutions.

 

Ultimately, I am not sure that everyone at C&P cares what we have to say, but I hope to be proven wrong. And in the meantime, I will take my voice elsewhere. The commission meeting in May will be important, the commissioners need to see that there is support, otherwise we are left to be represented by those who do speak up.

 

Hope to see everyone on Monday.

I'll be there Monday. My brother said he showed up a little late tonight. Said any questioning of motives or disagreements was treated very defensively rather than looked at as trying to come up with different ideas. Said the guy that came up with the $2 habitat stamp had the board stumped like they never thought that was a possibility (or they dont want it a possibility) add a $5 stamp or license increase on all licenses and they'll have money coming out of their ears and the tags can be left alone. If they insist on the tags its obvious their one mission is the tags and only the tags.

Who was your brother? The habitat stamp idea works. I will say that I don't think that everyone on C&P is in it to get more tags to rich people, but I do believe the rich people have them persuaded.

 

The question asked if I opposed the current raffle / auction model, I don't know that I have ever considered it because it has always existed in my memory. After some thought my question is this, where does it stop? We could certainly raise more money for conservation if we auctioned every tag to the highest bidder but then our model would cease to exist. I do not believe that the integrity of the model is worth sacrificing for any mount of money. I believe there are other ways.

Big guy 6'4". Assume he would have been wearing a hat and think he had his gf with him. Blonde haired girl. He showed up 20-30 minutes late and didnt know what had been asked so he didnt ask anything.

 

I've asked the same thing about where does this stop? Has to be a goal and when its reached its gotta stop. Give them unlimited power they're never gonna stop. Like you said if were just in it for money then heck yeah auction them all off to the highest bidder but that's not the goal. I'm saying slap a $5 education stamp on the licenses and call it a day. Assuming they can prove that's what the money will be used for and not more new trucks.

[AZDirtyTaco]

I'll be there again on Monday. I don't like the fact that they did not have one single other idea on the table to raise funds outside of the tags. That alone tells me they are not on the up and up. These folks on the boards have done a lot of good for all of us and have "carried the torch" for many years, and even decades, as mentioned by Flatlander. But this whole thing with the tags is straight FISHY and I can't tell you who's not in on it at this stage. The support from each of the organization members was unwavering. Their words did not match their body language, facial expressions, and demeanor while attempting to appear open to other suggestions.

I would like to see the money generated between stamps and/or an internal campaign to obtain additional donations through the already existing channel while paying for your application fees. Going straight to auction tags is purely bogus and an agenda being pushed in my opinion.

I did spend some time speaking with Dave with ADA aside from the meeting and liked what he had to say in general. He was the only one I felt cared enough to make a little sense out of it all and offer some insight, which I did find very helpful. I felt that was a productive conversation and look forward on building on it.

[ThomC]

 

 

 

I was there. The C&P crowd did not seem real receptive to people saying they were not in support of the idea. Dissenting opinions were characterized as "Criticism". There is a meeting at Bass Pro fine gun room Monday as stated above.

 

Didn't seem to me that there was much brainstorming for new ideas, although several commenters provided suggestions. I have a few more ideas. In the meantime, we need to get out and speak up. Please fill up the meeting on Monday. Remember that we cannot be at each others throats, rather we need to be appreciative of those who carried the flag during the HSUS fight and who do the bulk of the heavy lifting in the state's conservation efforts. Instead, we need to come with solutions and be willing to pitch in to help with those solutions.

 

Ultimately, I am not sure that everyone at C&P cares what we have to say, but I hope to be proven wrong. And in the meantime, I will take my voice elsewhere. The commission meeting in May will be important, the commissioners need to see that there is support, otherwise we are left to be represented by those who do speak up.

 

Hope to see everyone on Monday.

I'll be there Monday. My brother said he showed up a little late tonight. Said any questioning of motives or disagreements was treated very defensively rather than looked at as trying to come up with different ideas. Said the guy that came up with the $2 habitat stamp had the board stumped like they never thought that was a possibility (or they dont want it a possibility) add a $5 stamp or license increase on all licenses and they'll have money coming out of their ears and the tags can be left alone. If they insist on the tags its obvious their one mission is the tags and only the tags.

Who was your brother? The habitat stamp idea works. I will say that I don't think that everyone on C&P is in it to get more tags to rich people, but I do believe the rich people have them persuaded.

 

The question asked if I opposed the current raffle / auction model, I don't know that I have ever considered it because it has always existed in my memory. After some thought my question is this, where does it stop? We could certainly raise more money for conservation if we auctioned every tag to the highest bidder but then our model would cease to exist. I do not believe that the integrity of the model is worth sacrificing for any mount of money. I believe there are other ways.

Big guy 6'4". Assume he would have been wearing a hat and think he had his gf with him. Blonde haired girl. He showed up 20-30 minutes late and didnt know what had been asked so he didnt ask anything.

 

I've asked the same thing about where does this stop? Has to be a goal and when its reached its gotta stop. Give them unlimited power they're never gonna stop. Like you said if were just in it for money then heck yeah auction them all off to the highest bidder but that's not the goal. I'm saying slap a $5 education stamp on the licenses and call it a day. Assuming they can prove that's what the money will be used for and not more new trucks.

 

 

It is Not the New trucks for the Wildlife Managers and people who actually work, that are wasted money. It is the take home trucks by the people who dont accomplish anything except warm up a chair, twiddle thumbs in an office, and flap jaws, that waste money.

[Vinnie B]

I thought someone was saying earlier that this was needed because Game and Fish can't use funds for politics? Now it is 100% of funds go to G&F for education? Something is not adding up on this. I agree with the $5 education stamp and would pay it, but just like the HSUS they will be back trying to get more tags again in a few years

[Ohthatguy]

I thought someone was saying earlier that this was needed because Game and Fish can't use funds for politics? Now it is 100% of funds go to G&F for education? Something is not adding up on this. I agree with the $5 education stamp and would pay it, but just like the HSUS they will be back trying to get more tags again in a few years

As I understood it, there are two pools of money at hand.

 

Pool 1 would be generated by the auction/raffle tags tags or ??? and GnF would receive 100% of that and it should be earmarked for education. As stated before, G&F has to follow guidelines as to what they can put out on billboards and the like. It would be interesting to see how restrictive these guidelines are because it's going to be hard to "educate" people with your hands tied when you are really trying to fight a group with very deep pockets that can and will say anything to further their agenda.

 

Pool 2 would be used/controlled by C&P and could be used for political activities. Unless I missed it, the funding for this pool was only mentioned briefly in a response to a question asked by an attendee and it sounded like it would consist of primarily donations.

 

I would like to know what if anything the donors are asking for or have been offered by C&P?

 

Personally I'm leaning toward the dollar or two added to licenses and then maybe another dollar to application or tag fees as a way to fund the "education" portion.

 

I would also like to hear more from G&F regarding the necessity of this funding. Do they feel they need to generate 2M annually? I know it's being treated as "preventative maintenance" at this point and I think it's an issue that should be addressed, and soon.