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ATTENTION UNIT 23 LOVERS!

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1 hour ago, Ringer said:

Pine Mountain used to be great. The cows are a problem but the hikers killed the hunting there. Those little AZ Trail signs all over and people walking by the water holes filling up their filter bottles right after 20 cows crapped and peed in it. I saw elk there but nothing like the old days. There were a lot more cattle in the unit than I have ever seen.

Double T Ranch owners should be ol' school tarred and feathered publicly for what they have done out there. I've spent a lot of days and nights in that wilderness over the past 5-6yrs. It's only occasionally that I will see another soul more than 1/2mi from the primary trailhead used. Trust me when I say - it ain't the hikers.

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3 minutes ago, AZDirtyTaco said:

Double T Ranch owners should be ol' school tarred and feathered publicly for what they have done out there. I've spent a lot of days and nights in that wilderness over the past 5-6yrs. It's only occasionally that I will see another soul more than 1/2mi from the primary trailhead used. Trust me when I say - it ain't the hikers.

That is awful to hear. I haven't been out there in a long time but always liked that area. Maybe Jim can chime in on the Double T as he was so quick to defend the other ranch. 

 

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Just now, eastvalleyjerry said:

That is awful to hear. I haven't been out there in a long time but always liked that area. Maybe Jim can chime in on the Double T as he was so quick to defend the other ranch. 

 

I don't like to talk too much of that area on the interweb for selfish reasons. I'll only mention it for the purpose of speaking the truth about cattle and there impact. But if you've been out there, you know what's out there and it would make you sick to see what has happened to all of the springs and vegetation. It is/was truly a gem of a place and unique. The wildlife and fauna in there is nothing like it once was.

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To say every rancher is ethical and a good steward of the land is like saying every yahoo packing a gun or bow is an ethical law abiding hunter. It’s not true. But to say every rancher is out to destroy the environment is just as wrong. 

I hunt a desert ranch that changed ownership a few years ago. What was once a superb desert deer hunting area is  now as bad as it gets. The new owners have let the tanks fill up with sediment, windmills in need of repair. The old owners kept lions in check. The attitude of the new owner is lions are good for the environment. The influence of a good steward of the land and someone who goes through the motions couldn’t be more evident. 

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Well, 20 years ago saw only one or two hikers. Last year we saw 20-30 and had to take two ladies to Mormon Lake lodge because one had twisted her ankle. Seemed like they streamed by the water holes just at best light and sat down to relax 30 feet from my blind. They used to rotate the cattle more but last year there was just a lot of head there screaming and yelling. There were still elk around but they moved off of Pine Mountain and Wild Horse. I don't consider hikers an issue as they have every right to walk around. You just have to adapt to find the elk.

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What you Californian hippies don’t understand, is the people who have lied to you to get you to be against cattle on public lands, are against hunting as well.  Siding with them is suicide. When they get rid of the cattle, they will get rid of you. 

You are pawns. 

 

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1 hour ago, bojangles said:

What you Californian hippies don’t understand, is the people who have lied to you to get you to be against cattle on public lands, are against hunting as well.  Siding with them is suicide. When they get rid of the cattle, they will get rid of you. 

You are pawns. 

 

Yes.  It's hard for me to relate to hunters who align themselves with left leaning policies. These groups,  Defenders of Wildlife, Sierra Club, Wildlife Guardians....etc..... look for fractions within the community,  then swoop in. 

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I hate California, I am 3rd generation AZ Native. I make my own decisions and from what I have seen happen to this state for 40 years. Just because we where taught as kids to do something and find out later it's wrong, doesn't mean we shouldn't change it. Most people want to believe the cattle association is better than the Anti's. One and the same. Cattle will never go away but it doesn't have follow a model of destruction that has been in place for 75 years. We all have to divide the pie.  I am the furthest person you would ever be able to call left leaning.   

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The biggest difference between feral horses/burros and cattle is that horses and burros pull the grass up by the roots if left in a area too long. Cattle for sure can overgraze but rarely does it have lasting consequences. As said before there are good and bad in all walks of life and ranchers are no different. However since it is their livelihood overall they tend to maintain the areas quite well. 

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I am 100% pro cattle and for the ranchers. They keep the waterholes built and in general are helpful because their cattle need water just like the animals I hunt. Those cows can drink up a lot of water so it is best to hunt elsewhere when they are rotating them around the units. I like beef.

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2 hours ago, bojangles said:

What you Californian hippies don’t understand, is the people who have lied to you to get you to be against cattle on public lands, are against hunting as well.  Siding with them is suicide. When they get rid of the cattle, they will get rid of you. 

You are pawns. 

 

I feel you couldn't be more wrong if you have directed that statement toward me. If I were to take pictures and share them the next time I'm out in any of the wilderness areas I frequent, you wouldn't be able to hold a candle to that statement. Believe me, you don't want that if you are an advocate for cattle on public land... My best guess is you either don't spend time in the backcountry (>1,000yds from the 4x4), are affiliated with the industry, or have your drinkin goggles on as it relates to this conversation. Fact of the matter is that your attitude is what will hands-down lose this fight to maintain our rights as hunters and unfortunately there are many with similar attitudes that don't know how to practice 'leave no trace' ethics and prefer to throw every can of Copenhagen, beer can and bottle in the fire pits that they leave behind. Far too many of these types in the old guard hunting culture. Say what you will about those infamous organizations everyone loves to hate, but they are FAR better at caring for the land than the average hunter. Feel free to take aim - READY GO!!!  Lol

There isn't anything hippie or Cali about protecting the environment and preserving what we still have for future generations. It's about living responsibly and sharing the resources we all enjoy.

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1 hour ago, WHT_MTNMAN said:

The biggest difference between feral horses/burros and cattle is that horses and burros pull the grass up by the roots if left in a area too long. Cattle for sure can overgraze but rarely does it have lasting consequences. As said before there are good and bad in all walks of life and ranchers are no different. However since it is their livelihood overall they tend to maintain the areas quite well. 

Pretty sure that was the reason for the pleasant valley war. The sheep were pulling the grass up and killed it all. 

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3 hours ago, Wagges said:

I hate California, I am 3rd generation AZ Native. I make my own decisions and from what I have seen happen to this state for 40 years. Just because we where taught as kids to do something and find out later it's wrong, doesn't mean we shouldn't change it. Most people want to believe the cattle association is better than the Anti's. One and the same. Cattle will never go away but it doesn't have follow a model of destruction that has been in place for 75 years. We all have to divide the pie.  I am the furthest person you would ever be able to call left leaning.   

Cattlemen no longer follows the old overgrazing model. 

They found out overgrazing was bad, and fixed it.  Like 40 years ago.  

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