There will always be Cameras on water!

[recurveman]

On 12/7/2020 at 8:18 PM, az300wby said:

People are blaming the drought for the decline in quality bulls in 9. It’s not the drought, it’s cameras!  100k of cameras up there and they don’t stand a chance.  
100k is just an estimate could be more or less.  

You are partially correct but I think there are some huge assumptions about trail cameras.   I'll give you some examples.    In 2010 I had a unit 9 archery bull tag.   Me and a buddy had about 20 cameras up in the unit checking things out.   We ended up killing good bulls (340-350) off of the same tank.   We had a camera up on this tank for about 8 weeks prior to the season and all through the season.   We looked at every single pic from the prior 8 weeks and at no point in time did either bull come to the tank in the prior 8 weeks.    The camera had nothing to do with out success.   In 2017 I had another unit 9 archery tag.   Again we ran about 20 cameras.   We found a rather large bull on camera.   I went up on September 1st to go find this bull and spent 26 days looking for this critter and never laid eyes on the target bull.   I ended up shooting a good bull but not the one I was after.    Had another unit 9 tag in 1995 (before cameras) and shot a monster.    Also shot a good bull in unit 9 in 2003 archer hunt too.   Didn't use cameras for that hunt.   

Now with that said.   Unit 9 is a 320-340 class bull factory.   The reason for the decline in quality bulls (375+) bulls in unit 9 is a both the effectiveness of hunters and the issue of to many tags.   I don't think cameras really help most hunters kill bigger bulls.   I would almost argue the opposite.   I think the range finder and the ability of guys to kill bulls with a bow at longer ranges has dramatically impacted the quality in unit 9.   Also, the rifle hunters are now killing an absolute crushing number of bulls.   Back in the early 2000's there were 100 rifle tags and 100 archery tags with zero cow tags.    Now we have a 100 early archery tags, 100 late archery tags, 300 rifle bull tags and some years the unit has a few early rifle/muzzy tags.  Not to mention the 600-800 cow tags.   The main reason the quality in unit 9 has gone down in because of the amount of tags issued.    If we cut the tag numbers back then the quality would go back up dramatically.

Here is an example of why I think cameras save the lives of many critters.   In 2017 when I was chasing a monster I wasn't the only person that was hunting the bull.   Many, many guys were also hunting the bull.   The week before the hunt there were 3 ground blinds and 2 tree stands (I had a tree stand but knew the bull wouldn't be around due to the activity) at the tank.   Not mention the guys just hunting around the tank.   It was a zoo!!!!!!!   I worked areas many miles away in different directions looking for the bull.   The hunters for sure pushed the bull out of the area and I never relocated the bull again.    If there were no cameras then there would have been many fewer hunters at that tank (same tank I killed at in 2010) and I would have had a chance at another monster.    Cameras saved that bulls live.    The bull did end up getting shot by an early rifle hunter a week later.   There is the reason for lesser quality bulls in unit 9.     

Side note:   The quality of the really great bulls (400+) has dropped because of the cameras.   Not because of the average hunter but the governors tags.   A person could cover pretty much the entire unit's water sources with cameras.   This will give the governor tag holder the opportunity to hunt a very large bull.    Most years 1-2 really great bulls have been taken from unit 9 in this manner.    This has hurt the top end bulls in the unit.   Though I do realize that lately the governor bulls have come from other units.....because unit 9 has been crushed by to many tags. 

FYI - 2020 was the first time since 1993 I didn't put in for unit 9 early archery.    I believe there are better units to apply for now that unit 9 has been crushed by a high number of tags.   Cameras aren't the problem with bull quality.   I'm not really for or against cameras.   I just want to have quality hunting experiences.    I have learned a bunch from cameras and my wife and kids LOVE to look at the pictures.     They think it is cool to see all the animals and the fawns and calves are super cool to see when they are so young.   I'll miss that the most.         

[trphyhntr]

19 hours ago, MattMan said:

How are the birdwatchers gonna pimp the trail cam pics outside of social media to guides and/or potential clients for the big $$ payout?  Print ‘em and f’n meet in person?  

A tag holder who participates in grey or black market opportunities based on illicit trail cam pics at the very best risks having his trophy removed from the books, negating the whole bought and paid for big dick trophy.  It could come to light years later. 
 

The animals in AZ fall under the purview of The Department, and belong to the RESIDENTS of AZ.  Implement a free permit and registration system for cams used for non-hunting observation purposes.  No label, or tag, whatever, pull it, leave a note that it can be claimed at xx office for 30 days.  If it’s unclaimed, pull the card and use the images for Department research purposes. 

 

 

If I don’t pick up my mail from the post office after 30 days are they allowed to open it for research purposes 

[CouesFanatic]

1 hour ago, recurveman said:

You are partially correct but I think there are some huge assumptions about trail cameras.   I'll give you some examples.    In 2010 I had a unit 9 archery bull tag.   Me and a buddy had about 20 cameras up in the unit checking things out.   We ended up killing good bulls (340-350) off of the same tank.   We had a camera up on this tank for about 8 weeks prior to the season and all through the season.   We looked at every single pic from the prior 8 weeks and at no point in time did either bull come to the tank in the prior 8 weeks.    The camera had nothing to do with out success.   In 2017 I had another unit 9 archery tag.   Again we ran about 20 cameras.   We found a rather large bull on camera.   I went up on September 1st to go find this bull and spent 26 days looking for this critter and never laid eyes on the target bull.   I ended up shooting a good bull but not the one I was after.    Had another unit 9 tag in 1995 (before cameras) and shot a monster.    Also shot a good bull in unit 9 in 2003 archer hunt too.   Didn't use cameras for that hunt.   

Now with that said.   Unit 9 is a 320-340 class bull factory.   The reason for the decline in quality bulls (375+) bulls in unit 9 is a both the effectiveness of hunters and the issue of to many tags.   I don't think cameras really help most hunters kill bigger bulls.   I would almost argue the opposite.   I think the range finder and the ability of guys to kill bulls with a bow at longer ranges has dramatically impacted the quality in unit 9.   Also, the rifle hunters are now killing an absolute crushing number of bulls.   Back in the early 2000's there were 100 rifle tags and 100 archery tags with zero cow tags.    Now we have a 100 early archery tags, 100 late archery tags, 300 rifle bull tags and some years the unit has a few early rifle/muzzy tags.  Not to mention the 600-800 cow tags.   The main reason the quality in unit 9 has gone down in because of the amount of tags issued.    If we cut the tag numbers back then the quality would go back up dramatically.

Here is an example of why I think cameras save the lives of many critters.   In 2017 when I was chasing a monster I wasn't the only person that was hunting the bull.   Many, many guys were also hunting the bull.   The week before the hunt there were 3 ground blinds and 2 tree stands (I had a tree stand but knew the bull wouldn't be around due to the activity) at the tank.   Not mention the guys just hunting around the tank.   It was a zoo!!!!!!!   I worked areas many miles away in different directions looking for the bull.   The hunters for sure pushed the bull out of the area and I never relocated the bull again.    If there were no cameras then there would have been many fewer hunters at that tank (same tank I killed at in 2010) and I would have had a chance at another monster.    Cameras saved that bulls live.    The bull did end up getting shot by an early rifle hunter a week later.   There is the reason for lesser quality bulls in unit 9.     

Side note:   The quality of the really great bulls (400+) has dropped because of the cameras.   Not because of the average hunter but the governors tags.   A person could cover pretty much the entire unit's water sources with cameras.   This will give the governor tag holder the opportunity to hunt a very large bull.    Most years 1-2 really great bulls have been taken from unit 9 in this manner.    This has hurt the top end bulls in the unit.   Though I do realize that lately the governor bulls have come from other units.....because unit 9 has been crushed by to many tags. 

FYI - 2020 was the first time since 1993 I didn't put in for unit 9 early archery.    I believe there are better units to apply for now that unit 9 has been crushed by a high number of tags.   Cameras aren't the problem with bull quality.   I'm not really for or against cameras.   I just want to have quality hunting experiences.    I have learned a bunch from cameras and my wife and kids LOVE to look at the pictures.     They think it is cool to see all the animals and the fawns and calves are super cool to see when they are so young.   I'll miss that the most.         

Agreed 100%. I have seen the same thing with cameras in other units.