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Over the counter tags

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2 hours ago, oz31p said:

Plus 80% of all statistics are made up on the spot lololol

“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet” - Abe Lincoln

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On 12/31/2020 at 10:02 PM, Riesop said:

Just went and scouted a place I've been going for years and seen very few people, it was nice.  Right now there are three wall tents and cars everywhere, all from out of state, very frustrating.

I wonder if this is same area I’ve been going...outfitter with several wall tents this year and mostly CA and TX plates hunting pigs and mulies...people on every glassing hill. I don’t know if I’ll be going back to that area. 

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FYI: 

In 2019, there were 27,354 tags sold but only a total of 19,407 archery deer hunters were surveyed . They killed 1,676 mule deer and 872 whitetails (2,546 total) for a 13% success rate.  The highest success in any one hunt was 18% in Unit 1. Returned survey cards totaled 5,612. for all hunts.

View the entire 2019 Archery Deer Harvest

 

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Total assumptions, but I would also suggest that a higher % of the population is hunting.  Az has had what 1.5-2% growth in population yearly since those changes mentioned in the article were put into effect. So figuring a 25-30% increase in raw population.  I would also suggest a higher percentage of first timers are hunting every year and Az and increasingly more attractive for all out of non residents for OTC tags.  So let's just say conservatively 30-40% increase in hunters in the woods over the last 10-12 years and I would suggest we have a much smaller deer population now than 10 years ago too. Doesn't take a public forum or a deep biological study for me to get behind changes are needed and now.  I don't believe any of the harvest numbers as the self reporting doesn't work. Make it mandatory within 24hours. Simple phone number with date of kill, unit and number of points. Anything found not reported within 24hours is automatic license suspension. 

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Direct from the USFW reports which are used to dole out federal funds to each state:

The # is the total of those that had paid hunting licenses. And obviously those totals from 2017 on included hundreds of NR who applied for permits yet never set foot in AZ. I'm not poistive, but I think the jump from 2016 to 2017 coincides with the requirement of buying a license just to apply. But from there on, license sales have gone down, just as it is the case nationwide. 

2016 -- 215,444

2017 -- 324,553

2018 -- 305,214

2019 -- 310,392  

2020 -- 304,789

 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Outdoor Writer said:

Direct from the USFW reports which are used to dole out federal funds to each state:

The # is the total of those that had paid hunting licenses. And obviously those totals from 2017 on included hundreds of NR who applied for permits yet never set foot in AZ. I'm not poistive, but I think the jump from 2016 to 2017 coincides with the requirement of buying a license just to apply. But from there on, license sales have gone down, just as it is the case nationwide. 

2016 -- 215,444

2017 -- 324,553

2018 -- 305,214

2019 -- 310,392  

2020 -- 304,789

 

 

 

 

Shocking - however probably a large jump from the 07 change of 100K plus - 30+%?

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20 hours ago, jdown said:

Shocking - however probably a large jump from the 07 change of 100K plus - 30+%?

But likely the same number of hunters applying for permits, i.e. without already buying a license. And that likely indicates that we can substract that same 100K from the current license sales as those who apply and do not get drawn. 

I kind of chuckle a bit when I read all this stuff about too many hunters in the woods because I recall the early 1980s where there were more than twice as many deer permits as there are now and so many fewer hunts. I don't remember many complaints about it then, however. Of course, that was before the measuring tape became a main focus and the majority of deer hunters were just happy to, well ...just happy to get to hunt.   

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1 hour ago, Outdoor Writer said:

FYI: 

In 2019, there were 27,354 tags sold but only a total of 19,407 archery deer hunters were surveyed . They killed 1,676 mule deer and 872 whitetails (2,546 total) for a 13% success rate.  The highest success in any one hunt was 18% in Unit 1. Returned survey cards totaled 5,612. for all hunts.

View the entire 2019 Archery Deer Harvest

 

And guess what? The Deer slaughter in Unit 1 is Draw only. So save the deer and keep the archery tag over the counter

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3 minutes ago, bobbyo said:

And guess what? The Deer slaughter in Unit 1 is Draw only. So save the deer and keep the archery tag over the counter

I'm not sure 20 dead deer by 112 hunters in a unit the size of 1 can be termed a "slaughter." 🤣 

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23 minutes ago, Outdoor Writer said:

But likely the same number of hunters applying for permits, i.e. without already buying a license. And that likely indicates that we can substract that same 100K from the current license sales as those who apply and do not get drawn. 

I kind of chuckle a bit when I read all this stuff about too many hunters in the woods because I recall the early 1980s where there more than twice as many deer permits  as there are now and so many fewer hunts. I don't remember many complaints about it then, however. Of course, that was before the measuring tape became a main focus and the majority of deer hunters were just happy to, well ...just happy to get to hunt.   

You’re right, I think the focus should be available land. You mentioned the early 80s, think what the Prescott valley looked like then and what it looks like now.  Anthem wasn’t even on the drawing board yet.  Starlight pines was about a dozen or so houses and Bison Ranch wasn’t there.  Pine and Strawberry weren’t as spread out either.   I’m sure there are more places to mention but those amount to a huge chunk of land gone forever.  There was a lot more rain back then too.  Rain or not, I think the wildlife will do ok if they have space.

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14 hours ago, Saguaro said:

You’re right, I think the focus should be available land. You mentioned the early 80s, think what the Prescott valley looked like then and what it looks like now.  Anthem wasn’t even on the drawing board yet.  Starlight pines was about a dozen or so houses and Bison Ranch wasn’t there.  Pine and Strawberry weren’t as spread out either.   I’m sure there are more places to mention but those amount to a huge chunk of land gone forever.  There was a lot more rain back then too.  Rain or not, I think the wildlife will do ok if they have space.

Bingo! In the 1960s, my granfather and I hunted quail near Skunk Creek, 100 yds east of I17 & just north of Happy Valley Rd. and we hunted doves just east of and near the fence line of Luke AFB. I encountered & killed my first rattlesnake there. Before I quit 1 1/2 yrs. ago, I was playing golf on a course in the same exact spot. Payson & Pine were sleepy little burgs. 

It's been years since I hunted Chino Valley where I killed two 'lopes and my son killed his at 10 yrs.old. However, I had a guy who lived there train my GSP two decades later. When I visited there for that, I saw where the ranch we had hunted with permission near the railroad tracks was pretty much built up. I think it was owned by the the Keikeffer (sp?) family. 

In the early 1980s, we had record rainfalls. Water, water everywhere, and the deer population went nutso. Does were all having twins and their off-spring does were all having twins. Maybe it will happen again someday, but I'll likely not get to see it. 🤣

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8 hours ago, DCS said:

Anymore the G& F doesn't care about the struggling deer herd,its all about the money.

Someone needs to call operation game thief on AZGFD! They need to reel it in a tad dang ol rediculi 

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I was musing while watching TV last night and figured there's one assumption we could make that has happened since mandatory purchase of a license before applying for the draw came into being: Because they had already bought a license, NRs likely began hunting here more even if they didn't get drawn for the primary species they applied for.  That's obviously indicated by the uptick for # 3. BUT...without a thorough survey, it would be difficult to know what they hunted, i.e. maybe birds or maybe archery deer, as some here have surmised. The only way to even begin to know the latter would be knowing the # of NR OTC deer tags that were sold, which Flatlander is attempting to ascertain. 

Here are some more stats from the USFW annual hunting license reports. 

1.        Paid Hunting License Holders

2.        Resident Hunting Licenses, Tags, Permits and Stamps

3.       NR Hunting Licenses, Tags, Permits and Stamps

4.       Total Hunting License, Tags,Permits & Stamps

5.       Cost - Resident Hunting Licenses, Tags, Permits and Stamps

6.       Cost - NR Hunting Licenses, Tags, Permits and Stamps 

7.       Gross Cost - Hunting Licenses, Tags, Permits and Stamps 

Year                    1           2            3             4                   5                6                   7

2016 -- AZ 215,444   408,682   37,720   446,402   $11,614,363   $5,621,343   $17,235,706

2017 -- AZ 324,553   483,922   56,116   540,038   $13,803,232   $4,595,765   $18,398,997

2018 -- AZ 305,214   456,140   61,607   517,747   $13,358,303   $4,515,780   $17,874,083

2019 -- AZ 310,392   459,282   66,499   525,781   $13,375,848   $4,612,812   $17,988,661

2020 -- AZ 304,789   426,354   79,727   506,081   $12,431,069   $5,054,435   $17,485,504

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Kinda sad that nonresidents tags and licenses #3 is on the rise big time, but residents #2 is declining.  In my experience this year I can see why though.  I've always looked forward to hunting places I've been going as a kid and this year when have that anticipation you've been waiting for all year and you drive up and see wall tents and cars from other states it just takes a lot of the fun out of it.  I know it's public land and I have to realize that but sure would be nice to have a time for residents to enjoy their time out there.  But it's all about money so what can I say.

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That big increase for 2020 is probably an anomally that was somewhat caused by the C-19 issues. Lots of folks with nothing better to do than hunt. Still, as I mentioned in that reply, the only way to gauge the OTC deer effect is knowing how many NR OTC deer tags went out the door. Just becasue a NR bought a license, however, doesn't mean (s)he hunted deer or even hunted at all. 

Outfitter camps catering to NR hunters have been around a long time, especially on the North Kaibab for deer and during the elk season elsewhere. Despite what some folks believe, there ain't any "secret places" anymore. 🤣 

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