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TRAIL CAM BAN UPDATE 3/17/21

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7 minutes ago, Desertguide said:

I honestly don't understand what guides vs DIY has to do with all this. I understand there are some units that get hammered with cameras. That's gotta be frustrating as heck. I don't guide or hunt in any of the premium deer units so I only know what I hear. I completely understand the argument guys are making in favor of banning cameras. You all make very valid points. As I've stated many times, I'm opposed to unenforceable rules and the way this rule is worded, it's totally unenforceable. I was a hard core DIY guy long before I ever thought of guiding so I completely understand the challenges that come with having a 60 hour a week job, 2 weeks vacation and a family. You get to hunt one week if you're lucky enough to draw a tag and then a few weekends here and there for archery deer. Trailcams ARE a huge benefit to DIY guys. They may be for outfitters in certain unit as well... I don't know. As I've also stated, I don't use trailcams so throwing the "guide" thing at me makes no sense. I don't have a dog in the fight. I truly just want what's fair and right for AZ hunters. I also totally oppose more arbitrary, unenforceable rules. 

The baiting ban was also "unenforceable" yet very few still do it. You obviously haven't been to 23 or 9 for an elk hunt or the strip for a deer hunt since you don't understand why guides are the root of this problem.

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3 minutes ago, Desertguide said:

I honestly don't understand what guides vs DIY has to do with all this. I understand there are some units that get hammered with cameras. That's gotta be frustrating as heck. I don't guide or hunt in any of the premium deer units so I only know what I hear. I completely understand the argument guys are making in favor of banning cameras. You all make very valid points. As I've stated many times, I'm opposed to unenforceable rules and the way this rule is worded, it's totally unenforceable. I was a hard core DIY guy long before I ever thought of guiding so I completely understand the challenges that come with having a 60 hour a week job, 2 weeks vacation and a family. You get to hunt one week if you're lucky enough to draw a tag and then a few weekends here and there for archery deer. Trailcams ARE a huge benefit to DIY guys. They may be for outfitters in certain unit as well... I don't know. As I've also stated, I don't use trailcams so throwing the "guide" thing at me makes no sense. I don't have a dog in the fight. I truly just want what's fair and right for AZ hunters. I also totally oppose more arbitrary, unenforceable rules. 

Desert guide,

I had a early bull muzzleloader tag in 2019 and ran a bunch of cameras. I think I pretty much knew most bulls in the area up until the hunt. I ran into and actually developed pretty good relationships with two guides on that hunt. Neither ran cameras because they knew every glassing nob, preferred bedding area, and food source around from boots on the ground and years of experience. No cameras needed as they said.

I tagged out early and ran into a guy from wyoming who was struggling and took him in on biggest bull I knew of 366 net and helped him kill it. I did it for free of course. However, had I been contacted in advance and asked by him to perform a service "guiding" at an agreed upon cost and met legal requirements to do so perfect!

We killed that bull 1/2 mile from where guides were glassing...I showed them bull, we high fives, and wished each other well.

This guide vs DIY is just one of many ridiculous issues dividing us. 

 

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6 minutes ago, AZtroutman said:

The baiting ban was also "unenforceable" yet very few still do it. You obviously haven't been to 23 or 9 for an elk hunt or the strip for a deer hunt since you don't understand why guides are the root of this problem.

I literally just said I don't hunt or guide any of the premium deer units and that I only know what I hear. If you're determined to be pissed off at guides, have at it. Maybe they are the root of the problem. Still doesn't change the fact that this rule as worded is totally unenforceable. If you're cool with that... awesome. 

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6 minutes ago, Desertguide said:

I literally just said I don't hunt or guide any of the premium deer units and that I only know what I hear. If you're determined to be pissed off at guides, have at it. Maybe they are the root of the problem. Still doesn't change the fact that this rule as worded is totally unenforceable. If you're cool with that... awesome. 

I literally just said the baiting ban is "unenforceable" and hardly anyone does it anymore. So why would cams be any different? If it becomes law 98% of hunters, especially outfitters will follow the law. And yes for the record, I am "cool" with that.

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11 minutes ago, AZtroutman said:

The baiting ban was also "unenforceable" yet very few still do it. You obviously haven't been to 23 or 9 for an elk hunt or the strip for a deer hunt since you don't understand why guides are the root of this problem.

Also.. the baiting rule is far clearer in its wording than this dumb rule and it's pretty easy to find evidence of baiting. A guy can get rid of his trailcam evidence by hitting delete. I can also guarantee that there will still be cameras all over the place because it will take guys 5 seconds to figure out that it IS in fact unenforceable. 

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Desertguide- Ya, the rules would be hard to enforce.  But that doesn't necessarily make them ineffective.  Take a speed limit.  No way cops can keep 1000s of motorists from going 75 in a 65.  They just pick on the 85ers.  What is does do is bring the overall rate of speed down.  I guarantee the average speed on a highway is relative to the max speed limit.  Same thing here.  Sure, lots of folks will break the rules.  But I'll bet the number of game cameras go down in high pressure areas.  I gotta assume that law-abiding guides would hesitate to break the rules as well.  All said, it's not a crisis, but I'm kinda leaning with the slow it down approach.

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15 minutes ago, Markleo21377 said:

Desert guide,

I had a early bull muzzleloader tag in 2019 and ran a bunch of cameras. I think I pretty much knew most bulls in the area up until the hunt. I ran into and actually developed pretty good relationships with two guides on that hunt. Neither ran cameras because they knew every glassing nob, preferred bedding area, and food source around from boots on the ground and years of experience. No cameras needed as they said.

I tagged out early and ran into a guy from wyoming who was struggling and took him in on biggest bull I knew of 366 net and helped him kill it. I did it for free of course. However, had I been contacted in advance and asked by him to perform a service "guiding" at an agreed upon cost and met legal requirements to do so perfect!

We killed that bull 1/2 mile from where guides were glassing...I showed them bull, we high fives, and wished each other well.

This guide vs DIY is just one of many ridiculous issues dividing us. 

 

That's awesome!!! I had a similar situation happen last January. I found a giant 5x4 in the desert at basically the same time as a couple DIY guys. They had to work and I had a client from Montana so we hunted that buck pretty hard. We had several close calls with him but couldn't close the deal. I had a 1 day gap between that hunter leaving and another coming in and I knew those 2 guys would be back out hunting him because we traded numbers. I backed out totally until they had to go back to work. They ended up getting 6 opportunities at him and the buck left the area. I didn't get to hunt him again but I'd do it that way all over again. I have no interest in competing for animals. What lots of guides don't understand is that their clients don't like the stress of competing with other hunters for animals. Every client I've ever guided would MUCH rather have a stress free hunt and get an opportunity at a mature animal instead of racing all over creation trying to best other hunters to an animal. I have zero interest in that crap

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8 minutes ago, HuntHike61 said:

Desertguide- Ya, the rules would be hard to enforce.  But that doesn't necessarily make them ineffective.  Take a speed limit.  No way cops can keep 1000s of motorists from going 75 in a 65.  They just pick on the 85ers.  What is does do is bring the overall rate of speed down.  I guarantee the average speed on a highway is relative to the max speed limit.  Same thing here.  Sure, lots of folks will break the rules.  But I'll bet the number of game cameras go down in high pressure areas.  I gotta assume that law-abiding guides would hesitate to break the rules as well.  All said, it's not a crisis, but I'm kinda leaning with the slow it down approach.

Good points!!!

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22 minutes ago, HuntHike61 said:

Desertguide- Ya, the rules would be hard to enforce.  But that doesn't necessarily make them ineffective.  Take a speed limit.  No way cops can keep 1000s of motorists from going 75 in a 65.  They just pick on the 85ers.  What is does do is bring the overall rate of speed down.  I guarantee the average speed on a highway is relative to the max speed limit.  Same thing here.  Sure, lots of folks will break the rules.  But I'll bet the number of game cameras go down in high pressure areas.  I gotta assume that law-abiding guides would hesitate to break the rules as well.  All said, it's not a crisis, but I'm kinda leaning with the slow it down approach.

I wonder how many hunters will keep running cameras for fun... which will still be totally legal... and hunt different areas so they stay legal.  And how many guys will go crazy when they see cameras still up or even steal cameras meant for viewing thinking they're "helping" game and fish.

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30 minutes ago, Desertguide said:

I wonder how many hunters will keep running cameras for fun... which will still be totally legal... and hunt different areas so they stay legal.  And how many guys will go crazy when they see cameras still up or even steal cameras meant for viewing thinking they're "helping" game and fish.

That will probably cause more conflicts having people tear down legally placed cams. Having a a bunch of "ifs or exceptions" in the mix will be a disaster. They have enough problems educating people and enforcing rules that are 100% clear.

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27 minutes ago, Desertguide said:

I wonder how many hunters will keep running cameras for fun... which will still be totally legal... and hunt different areas so they stay legal.  And how many guys will go crazy when they see cameras still up or even steal cameras meant for viewing thinking they're "helping" game and fish.

Yup- If you have a hunting license or helping family and or friends while hunting and use trail cameras in the field- you are now a criminal under this rule making proposal!  In essence as hunters we will be banned for life to enjoy the world of  trail cameras. Absolutely- Trail  cameras will still be everywhere as a whole new group of outdoor enthusiast will be perfectly legal to do so! And yes private info will be passed on to outfitters, guides and hunters from the non hunting trail camera enthusiast! 

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22 minutes ago, Desertguide said:

I wonder how many hunters will keep running cameras for fun... which will still be totally legal... and hunt different areas so they stay legal.  And how many guys will go crazy when they see cameras still up or even steal cameras meant for viewing thinking they're "helping" game and fish.

Great point. The problem they're trying to address is seemingly caused by a small group of people, guides in premier units, in a small number of units and the group of people causing the issue are already regulated differently than the average hunter. Why not used a targeted rule to address the issue and aimed specifically at guides instead of roping in a bunch of people who have nothing to do with it. Important to note, trail cams in non premier units seems to be a non issue. While scouting water sources where I hunt I have seen zero cams and have had guides and cams impact my hunts zero times. Weve got enough rules as it is and should make an effort to accommodate individual hunting styles as much as possible and reasonable. 

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8 minutes ago, Asm123 said:

Great point. The problem they're trying to address is seemingly caused by a small group of people, guides in premier units, in a small number of units and the group of people causing the issue are already regulated differently than the average hunter. Why not used a targeted rule to address the issue and aimed specifically at guides instead of roping in a bunch of people who have nothing to do with it. Important to note, trail cams in non premier units seems to be a non issue. While scouting water sources where I hunt I have seen zero cams and have had guides and cams impact my hunts zero times. Weve got enough rules as it is and should make an effort to accommodate individual hunting styles as much as possible and reasonable. 

I'd be perfectly fine with more regulation on guides and outfitters. If that's the source of the issue then address it. That's better than all the grey area this rule will create. Make guides carry permits for their cams and limit how many they can have in a specific unit. I'm totally cool with all that. This might sound sappy but the first thing I think of is the family guy with limited time to scout and how this cuts his legs out from under him. 

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13 hours ago, az300wby said:

I didn’t see that 20+ years ago.  But your right big money has changed hunting for ever.  They will just throw more money to get results.  Kind of say what hunting has become.  
 

Yup- just look as the commissioner tags- brings hoards of guides sitting on every hill, watching and managing the animals location until the shooter shows up and pulls the trigger. It is truly the starting point of the elephant in the room but in the name of huge $$$$$ everyone looks the other way...... Then the picture with 20 guys and the shooter showing off........  So lets blame trail cameras for it!  

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5 minutes ago, bowhunter4life said:

Yup- just look as the commissioner tags- brings hoards of guides sitting on every hill, watching and managing the animals location until the shooter shows up and pulls the trigger. It is truly the starting point of the elephant in the room but in the name of huge $$$$$ everyone looks the other way...... Then the picture with 20 guys and the shooter showing off........  So lets blame trail cameras for it!  

Necessary evil. The VAST amounts of money those tags generate goes a long way in this state. All the drinkers we hunt, all the land the AES Sawyers clear, all the old barbed wire that's torn down, all the dirt tanks that get mucked out... all of that happens with the money from those commissioners tags. 

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