nralifer

The new Nosler magnum cartridges are very similar to the Dakota cartridges and fill the same niche. The difference is that they are a little longer and shoulder angle at 35 degrees and use a 0.532 bolt face. They should work very well with the Superformance powder, and are designed for 3006 length actions. Spoke with a physicist from Hodgdon at the SHOT show and he said that the ball powders burn at a lower temperature than stick powders and have less effect on throat erosion. The 28 Nosler should be the equal of the 7STW and use less powder and have less throat erosion. The 30 Nosler is coming and it really is the equivalent of the 300 WBY. I use a 330 Dakota for hunting and it is a superb cartridge for any big game both short and long range. Brought that buffalo down with a single heart shot. If Nosler comes out with a 338 Nosler that should be superb. Recoil is stout on the bench but in the field its about the equivalent of a 16 or 12 ga shotgun. As a whole Nosler has a nice lineup. Unfortunately Remington is letting the Dakota line wither on the vine and Nosler is taking over that niche.

Have you checked the run out on the latest batch of ammo? Standard seating dies can have quite inconsistent runout varying by as much a 0.005 in. Hornady makes an affordable high quality runout gauge that allows you to straighten errant bullets.

They should have stuck with it.

Get a load of these babies. No tip melting problem here. From Lt to Rt 170 gr .308, 239 gr .338, and 269 gr .338. Aluminum melts at about 1220 degrees F

Hornady claims that the tips on their Amax bullets were melting in mid flight, so they changed the tip material to a plastic of higher melting temp. See the article in the American Rifleman Jan 2016 issue or their promotional Utube videos. The tips apparently were melting at 200-400 yds.

MMACFIVE, you should be able to answer the question you posed to start this thread, but you need a chronograph and at least a piezo electric pressure gauge system, seven test barrels and an action that you can switch barrel easily in, and load bullets of similar SD in different calibers to the same peak pressure. Each barrel should be the same length, have the same twist, made by the same manufacturer and all should have the same contour. Each barrel will cost around $500 or so each, so for the series you presented you need $3500 in barrels alone. An Oehler 35 chrono is around $400, Savage long action $350 +-, barrel nut wrench $50, piezo pressure system $10,000 (wild guess), and another $2000 or so for dies, powder brass primers, bullets. You will not need targets, staples or a staple gun though since only the velocity as a function of pressure and SD is the issue. Total cost thus far about $16,300. If you do the experiment, let us know the results, and I would be curious to see how close I came to estimating the cost.

ctracingraptor, I highly recommend the Redding competition bullet seater dies. They have a collet that closes and aligns the bullet to the neck before it is seated. If you can borrow a runout gage and check the runout on bullets you have loaded with regular RCBS or even regular Redding seating dies you will see the variation in runout can be as much as .005 in. Accurate loads should be 0.001 or less. The competition seater dies will dramatically reduce the number of flyers in for groups

One should simply take a caliper and measure the bullet length and look at the meplats in any box of Berger bullets. You are likely to see a disturbing amount of variation. 6-7 thousands is not uncommon and the meplat shapes are all over the place. I shoot 210 VLDs and 185 OTC tactical .308 caliber

Any powder at extreme heat in the sun will increase burn rate an pressures will rise because the gun itself will be hot. So I am careful to check any max load I developed in cooler weather. That said I have not seen a big effect Superformance to temps of 85 degrees and sunny. At that temp MVs increased about 50 fps. Sun was shining on the gun heating it up.

RONINFLAG you could develop your own load by seeing if for the 300 rsaum there are loads for H4831. Start with the lowest charge in grains but use superformance instead, then increase the charge by 1/2 grain intervals until you either get a velocity that is good for you or you get primer flattening or extractor marks on your brass. If that happens then back off one grain and call that the max. You an expect 100 to at most 200 fps more velocity than what is quoted in you'll load data for other powders.

Wanted to revive this topic. Any body use Superformance powder in the 270 or any thing else? It probably would work well in the 270WSM and 7Rem Mag. CTAFOYA you could try it in the 243 . Hodgdon lists loads for up to 80 grs bullets in their 2012 Annual Manual. I will be trying it in the 243 soon myself for heavier bullets. I will start with charges that are listed minimums for H4831 since both powders have similar burn rates.

My favorite powder for the 270Win is by far Superformance. You can get over 3000 fps with 140 gr bullets from 22 in barrels and get sub inch groups. Works well in 330 Dakota, 300 WSM also. Excellent replacement for H4831. Will add 100-200 fps. Does not work in the 308 Win For the 308, Leverevolution works very well. Need to experiment since there is no published data, but this has become my favorite powder for this cartridge. I use WLRM primers since these give the most consistent MVs. Accurate 2520 and H414 also work well. H380 for 204 Ruger is excellent. Can fill case to capacity and have slight compression using 39gr Sierra BK bullet. Easy to get 1/2 inch groups with this powder.

Had another thought. You could buy a box of some high quality factory ammo and compare it to you loads for muzzle velocity consistency.

I had a similar problem with several calibers. Was using Fed 215M primers. Switched to WLRM primers and the muzzle velocities were a lot more consistent. The chrono could be the problem, but if you get consistent velocities with another load or rifle, the chrono likely is OK. I use both Magnetospeed and an Oehler 35. I can recommend the Magnetospeed highly. Only potential downside is the attachment to the barrel influencing the harmonics and point of impact. More likely with a thin long barrel. Be sure to check the bayo between each shot and be sure it is tight. Works well with both copper jacketed lead core or solid copper bullets.

Havasuhunter, I should mention that the target set immediately before the 1080 target (6 steel plates 7 inches wide placed at 680 yds) was timed for three minutes and if one did not complete the set in the allotted time the shooting was over. Most shooters I saw did not get a chance to shoot at the 1080 yard target.

You should check out the review of the Ruger American rifle in G&A (available on line) and then check out the new Ruger Precision Rifle. Both use the same bolt system, and have borrowed design concepts from Savage in that the trigger resembles the Accutriger and the barrel is secured to the action by a barrel nut. I do not own a Ruger bolt action, but I can tell you that both rifles peak my interest. The Precision Rifle is featured in the August issue of American Rifleman where it is discussed in detail.

Thank you Chris. That was an awesome trip. Believe it or not my wife spotted it.

Chris, Thanks for noticing my post, but I am not sure what you mean.

Friend of mine used our 168gr 308 bullet in a 308 Win for a long range competition in Fort Pierre, SD yesterday. He was one of 2 shooters out of 50 to hit the 1080 yd target. The other guy was using a 6XC and a 105gr Berger bullet. Conditions were difficult as the wind was gusting between 10-20 mph. He had a 27in Benchmark barrel, 1:10 twist with a suppressor and the MV was around 2900fps using the Leverevolution powder. I do not know if anyone was using a 7mm Mag.

Had a chance to shoot our 168 bullet using my 20 in. 308 at 1020 yds yesterday. Got 3 shot groups ranging between 0.5 to 1.6 MOA. Wind was variable. Used 46.5 gr Leverevolution and the MV was 2735. That load groups at 0.2 in at 100 yds.

Has been some time since I posted. Have been busy testing the 308 bullets we make. Redesigned the 170gr bullet a bit and it is now a 168 gr bullet. The BCs I quoted for the 170 were optimistic. We have a more accurate measurement method described in a previous post. Works well at 650 yds. The BC of the 168 bullet is 0.520, and that of the 180 gr bullet is 0.560. Both are more or less equivalent to the Bergers. The bearing surfaces allow the bullets to exit from a 308 Win 20" barrel at about 40-70 fps more than the Berger loaded to the same powder charge, and the bullet lengths and meplats are more uniform. I have been using the Leverevolution powder, for which there is no published data in the 308Win, and have been very happy. Can get less than 0.5 in. 3 shot groups with both bullets. Like Barnes bullets, they seem to like a little jump of about 0.035 in. off the lands. The max charge of LVR I have found to be 46.5 gr for the 168, and about a grain less for the 180 gr bullet. With the 168 my MV averages 2735 fps, and the 180 2650 from a 20 inch barrel. WLRM primers gave me the lowest spread in MV. Have tried 215M primers which do not seem to work as well, which is surprising. A friend of ours has bought a few of the 168s. From his 308 Win he has gotten sub 5 in. groups at 500 yds. He is going to use them in a 1000 yd match next month in Pierre, SD. I also have a 300 WSM with a 27 in. Benchmark barrel and these bullets shoot well also. The 168s MV using Superformance powder will easily give 3200+ MV and the 180 3150.

The lead musket ball will have the higher specific gravity. Which has the higher sectional density? The one with the smaller diameter. Which has the higher BC? My guess (since I'm not a round ball expert) is the one with the more aerodynamic shape. Why do I say that despite what I have been expressing? Because the balance between SD and form factor is extreme in this case. If both had equal dimensions regardless of whether or not they were round balls or modern boat-tail bullets, the lead version would hands down have the higher BC. I agree 100% that shape has much to do with BC. That's why the rule of thumb equation for BC is SD/i where SD is sectional density and i is form factor. Both are critical to the equation. When I'm referring to the importance if SD in BCs, in the context of this discussion, I'm comparing bullets with equal dimensions or equal form factors to illustrate SDs importance. Bullets of dimensions that have differing weights do not have the same BC. The heavier of the 2 will always have a higher BC. Comparing the 170 solid to a 168 Hybrid, the percentage of difference in form factor seems large on paper but in reality, when it comes to drag while it is in flight the change between the 2 is very small. regardless of what any calculators will tell you. Is it possible for your 170 to be higher than the 168 hybrid? It's absolutely possible (banding aside). It would be possible to improve the BC of the 168 hybrid. But not by much. It would take the same form factor as the 215 hybrid to get it up to .544g1. Adding the 2 grains and subsequent increase in SD, the 170 would reach the .550g1 mark if it had the same form factor as the 215. To illustrate my point, Berger's 300 grain hybrid 338 bullet and the 250 grain hybrid 338 bullet have the same form factor. The big difference between the two since the caliber is the same is weight and subsequent SD yet the 250 has a lower BC. In fact, it is directly proportionate. (.818/300) * 250 = .682. .818 is the BCg1 of the 300 grain and .682 is the BCg1 of the 250. 83.4% is the difference in not only the BC but 83.4% is also the difference between their SDs as well. This should illustrate the importance of raw sectional density in regards to BC. 308Nut, you seem very well versed in ballistics. I would like to share with you the saga my friend and I have had attempting to measure BCs. Lets say we learned a lot about chronographs, and the conclusion is that the Superchrono is not accurate, and could not be used for BC measurements. What we finally have settled on is using the Oehler 35 to measure the MV, and are using an acoustic wave form program that we found on the Audacity web site for free! My friend, Jason, who also is the bullet designer, found a paper by Michael Courtney on an acoustic method for measuring flight times using that program by placing your computer half way between the shooter and the target, and measuring the time difference as shown on the wave form of the shot between the muzzle blast and the impact of the bullet on a steel gong. We tried it over 400 yds and as long as the wind was not blowing we can get reasonably consistent data. The problem is that the wind is always blowing in SD. Instead I bought 2 Midway walkie talkies and placed one behind the gong, used a rubber band to keep it transmitting, and the second one on the computer so that the computer would record the noise from the impact of the bullet. The computer was behind me about 10 feet from the muzzle of the gun. This method seems to be largely wind proof, and you can get data on flight times that are consistent to +- a millisecond. You have to correct for the difference in distance the computer and the recording walkie talkie are from their respective sound sources, and figure out how many milliseconds it takes to travel that distance difference and add that to the flight time if the computer is further from the muzzle than the walkie talkie at the gong is from the gong. Turns out that you need to know the atmospheric pressure and temp to see what the speed of sound is at the time of your test. If you do all that and have loads that vary in velocity by not more than 1.5%, then you will get very consistent flight times. I have tried it at 200 yds, and next week will try at 400 yds. We got some very interesting and encouraging results, but would like someone else to try the method on whatever bullets they want to see what happens. To do this you have to be a little nuts, but it keeps one busy in the off season.

Rancilio, thanks for the article. Very illuminating. Confirms my our thinking about our bullets. very important to get the right ration of BC to bullet weight

That really is a good question. I guess the answer is that it so much fun to play with all the other calibers and loads. For long range shooting, though, it is mostly about BC. Out to 400 yds or so, BCs in the 0.4 range and MVs in the 2700 -3000 fps range work well. Beyond that is where bullets really start to drop and lose their energy. It is us hunters and amateur shooters creating a demand for better bullets and rifles that has proven to be a remarkable defense asset for the country. Consider that the two best snipers our military has had, Carlos Hathcock and Chris Kyle, both started out as hunters. Also consider a little fact that I heard Chuck Yager point out, and that is that something like 90% of the air to air kills in WWII were done by pilots that bird hunted.

Well, actually Oehler will be shipping in March a chronograph system that sounds like it is perfectly suited for generating exactly the data both you and I want. It is called the system 88, and consists of both an optical chrono, their model 35, to determine the muzzle velocity, and an acoustic detector system consisting of 4-8 microphones, that transmits signals wirelessly over 1500 yds. Both are integrated by a receiver that then not only calculates the average BC over the distance between chrono and the microphones, but will also plot the path of the bullet as it passes the microphone array. If the microphones are arranged in a square array it can plot a group! They say that if you place a printout of the group plot on top of the actual target, the plot and the holes in the target will coincide!! You really don't even need a target. All you need is an aim point down range a little beyond your microphone array. The data is entered into your PC. The bad news is that it costs $12,500 for the basic system. They used to make a system 43 that did more or less the same thing , but discontinued it after a few yrs. It cost substantially less, apparently. I guess I will have to get one since using the Oehler 35 down range as we are doing is proving to be very laborious and slow. Bullet has to pass within a few inches of the detectors to register a signal, so it really is a hit or miss proposition, no pun intended, of course. I'm waiting for the shot where we hit the detectors. Consider this. What has a higher specific gravity and sectional density, a 500 gr lead musket ball or a 500 gr Barnes 458 brass solid? I don't know off hand and just thought of the question, but clearly the shape would play a big role in determining the BC of each.