Str8Shot

Not sure who you are talking to when referring to the statement above... But, can you please supply us official statements or documents with individuals that support your above statement and what gives you the ability to know what others believe when it comes to intent. oh and answer a simple question ? If baiting deer did not improve you chance at all for quality and quantity ... would you do it ? I for one would love to have access back to some large areas of Public land ( that Arizona hunters once had open access too) that has been land locked by private land owners and ranchers whom shut off access to a majority but allow access to a select small few of their friends and such (guides and outfitters who worked out deals) in some good areas of some good units, units where hunters are denied access to public lands " by a small group or an individual stating it is about land owners rights" ... I am pretty sure you are familiar with such areas, and do you not feel that this is even a smaller group (some even fellow hunters, guides, and outfitters) infringing the rights of access to public hunting lands?

ttt

what's stopping anyone from doing that with the current rules? 50 piles of corn per square mile of public land and a blind or treestand at every pile! where the heck do you see this? I sure as heck don't see any corn piles in the units I hunt. Take a walk around unit 23 in august. Like Stephen said above, that's BS. And if it is true they don't know what they're doing. Deer in August will rarely come to feed when given the natural food that's around. I'd like to see pictures of this so called 50 corn piles per square mile. He cant support his comment with pictures because he is just RUNNING HIS NECK. While, I highly question the 50 piles a square mile, I find it disturbing that just because someone does not agree with your practice of baiting and does not care if this Ban is passed, that others here would belittle them in such manners with taunting... I do not agree with baiting because it is how I was brought up as a Native born Phoenician by a grandfather and father who did not practice baiting, and though I am not sure when the regulation changed baiting was prohibited in AZ for many years and at least through my late Teens.. I also do not agree with Baiting because it is putting something ( many types that are no different than putting a bowl of candy in front of your kids) that does not exist in that spot in the games natural habitat. This practice uses the games own biology and behaviors against them by form of conditioning. Much the same way your kids can get addicted to drugs ( and I think most here see illegal drugs as a bad thing) Now before someone starts talking about calls and scents such as Estrus ... guess what ... they occur in nature and can minimize opportunity as much as they maximize depending on conditions, how many bulls come running to a call in those Dec. Hunts ? and even the proposed change does not inhibit use of call or scents ... so it is kind of a mute point Technology in the tools for method of take only effect each hunter and his personal Ethics , though it may create advantage, that advantage is limited by the Ethics and abilities of each hunter , which we all know are not the same from one to the other I also have read numerous studies from many states(most with better herds populations and opportunities for hunters) that have shown that Bait can increase the spread of disease whether one chooses to believe it or not there is no real evidence stating it does not increase the spread of disease ( we may not worry about CWD here now but what would you think of the possible risk of baiting if the Kaibab Herds suddenly showed cases of CWD or some other disease that could wipe out the herds ) If you were in a locked room for 3 days with 500 people, knowing that 50 had a disease spread by saliva, with your hands tied behind your back and the only option to eat was face first from a trough of food shared by everyone .... would you dive in face first or try to starve out the 3 days? The beauty of that scenario is that as humans we can Think about that choice.... wild game does not have that luxury. Some studies show Bait can affect heard feeding behaviors, times, movement and even seasonal migrations ... Now anyone can argue with the details of any study but on the flip side there is no conclusive study that confirms baiting public populations of game does not affect any of these findings nor supports that baiting is more beneficial to the herd than to the Hunters. I do believe in closed populations on private land that baiting can allow for proper culling, taking of does, and mature bucks before degress in order to make a stronger herd population, but lets be real, this is not why it is practiced in AZ on Public land where we are not culling out genetics, does or over abundance of smaller bucks. Once again if it did not increase your odds for both quality and opportunity , no one would be spending the $$$ and doing it ... It is as much about increasing your odds over the number of hunters in the field that are not doing it and if every tag holder were to put out multiple bait sites in each unit then you may see that 50 piles of bait per square mile and the advantage would be lost just as much as if you dropped slurry bombers from border to border letting it rain down your bait on the unit... If it Passes , no sweat of my chest ... if it does not pass , no sweat of my chest , but to create and idea that every new regulation or change is some conspiracy theory to further take away a freedom, or liberty is a stretch.... And if you can refute this with evidence from the states that have banned baiting for decades taking away our freedom to hunt.... please do ... Still waiting for a response on the actual numbers of states that have the same baiting laws as AZ ... If I was wrong please share with me where you found different

If you are going to put numbers you should put facts ... 6 - States allow baiting year round on public land and allow hunting over bait ( with minimal restriction of national monuments and/or National wildlife Refuge), this includes Az ( possible plus 1 since Wyoming has no specific written info) 12- states allow baiting on private land or with heavy regulation of types of bait, area/units, and dates 10 - additional states Allow Feeding but not baiting and all bait must be removed either within 10 days of hunt open or is only allowed through specific Calender dates i.e. No bait from Sept 1st - Dec 31st here is the link if you want more details and numbers http://www.lucky-buc...aitinglaws.html Info was accurate as of 08/2012 The fact is you would not be baiting and using supplements if it did not improve your success and quality of hunts that you offer a client, but even with a change that would not make you any less of a guide or outfitter or any less valuable... but making a blanket statement that 20 states offer the same type of baiting as AZ does is absolutely false. P.S. February 2012 field and Stream had a survey where 51 % of hunters, even some that admitted to using bait said they even believed that hunting over bait was not fair Chase

What people like you fail to see is the BIG picture. Your, and others narrow mindedness on the situation will only negatively effect other hunters. What I mean by that is when you start opening doors for them to banning things, they (who ever the purposing entity might be) will never be happy. For instance, if WE allow liberals,government whom ever ban automatic weapons next thing you know they are going after 30 round mags, then 20 round mags eventually leading to all AR-15 having to be shot as single shot rifles, one bullet at a time. Basically, if you let them get their foot in the door WHO KNOWS if/when they will be content with what they have been banned! Even if baiting isn't your thing (it's not mine but I have NOTHING against it), the fact of the matter is it is a form of hunting so we ALL should support it no matter what! Show me details or facts about top US hunting destinations where baiting has been illegal ( many states for decades) where an attempt to take away the rights to hunt ? p.s. it is narrow minded to assume so much that everything that the g& f does as some future attack on civil liberties and not about them doing their jobs.

I find it outright silly when so many complain about G&F doing their job , hunting and the rights to do so have always been centered around conservation and management of our herds. This means as time changes so may the rules and regulations. For those that constantly cry foul and blame environmentalist I believe you are self diluted. A large percentage of hunters in this state understand such changes and their roles in the process of conservation and do not feel that baiting during the open season is necessary nor needed ... Fact ... of the top 15 hunting destinations in the US only 2 allow baiting on public lands during the open season and while hunting ( Arizona and Utah) and one, Texas only allows baiting on private land with owners permission... the other 12 it is illegal to bait period or any type of bait must be removed a minimum of 10 days prior to hunting season. I am no environmentalist, and I support This move as I am sure many hunters out there do... Hey at least you can still have livestock salt licks still if it passes

I personally see no problem with the proposal and it is pretty specific to edible so I do not see elk calls being in any kind of danger, plus calls can spook off just as much as they attract just look at all the post from guys blaming hoochie mama calls in the middle of their pursuit by other hunters for blowing their chance.

300 RUM is Sold ... 300 sav. Still available

Well buyer on RUM has been no show twice ... 300 RUM and Savage still available ... Lowered prices in original post

ttt

I have two Trolling motors I am looking to sell, Both are in good shape and work great with good props, both are bow mount with 54" shafts ( will double check this ) 1 - 12 volt 50lb thrust for $175 2 - 12/24 volt 60 lb thrust for $275 price is for mounts, motor, controls ready to hook to battery and go Will try to add some pics later PM for details or text me at (480) 262- 0409 with questions and contact info ... Can be hard to answer phone at certain times but with text will contact you back

You, really going to compare natural food sources and water to dragging out bags of sweet feed, corn, deer cane or what ever you flavor is, that is one of the dumbest pro baiting arguments I have heard. . It is the same thing... an attractant. food is food, acorns or corn, salt or water, whats the difference? If baiting is illegal. is there any difference in the two. The laws can be read different ways, depends on who is reading them. Well, then you just answered the argument of why baiting for big game is not necessary or needed ... they all ready have the attractants out there and the hunter just needs to find it ... Seriously sweet feed, deer cane , peanut butter , none of these exist in nature and are nothing more than a candy to get the game addicted to come back to where the candy has been placed. If food is food, why not just let your kids grow up eating nothing but snickers bars and soda pop? You are using a stupid argument and I feel it is dumb to argue semantics. Game will already be in areas that have food water and shelter, baiting is adding something desirable ( like candy ) that does not exist in the natural habitat to lure game to a specific location ... Not the same thing as the natural food supply, and whether you bait or do not bait, to try and say different is as about as ignorant as a person or hunter could get. p.s. I stated before it is not illegal to bait deer but the process of hanging pipe feeders could constitute other laws being broke ( such as leaving personal property in National forest or damaging trees in the hanging process) , this constitutes a gray area as does the regular sign of bear being at your feeder... That is all that is being said, but my opinion is I do not care that people do it as it is currently a legal practice, but I do not care if it is made illegal, and with all honesty I know many other hunters out there who would like it to be illegal to Bait Big Game in Arizona as I do. Like you said they have what they need in nature why change the Game before changing ourselves ?

sent reply

Without a doubt ... +1

You, really going to compare natural food sources and water to dragging out bags of sweet feed, corn, deer cane or what ever you flavor is, that is one of the dumbest pro baiting arguments I have heard. .

Baiting seems to be a big gray area that G&F is trying to still define (which I am all for) , and methods ( which include leaving feeders on NF land and bears) seems to cross the legal lines from state to federal, Born and raised in AZ, growing up baiting was not allowed for hunting for many years and I could not tell you exactly when things were changed, but many old timers still think it is not legal to bait even though it is, excluding Bear. I do not agree with baiting but as long as it is legal many hunters will look for the easier way to insure they get more opportunity and that is their right, but I do not think that doing away with it in AZ is a bad thing... Many states with far more viable populations of big game have outlawed hunting over bait and it does not stop the hunters in their quest for doing what they love... I would be careful when it comes to baiting and Bear, from what I understand if you know bear are coming to your bait frequently and you continue to bait that area, you are breaking the law, but that too seems to be a gray area where it may just be a matter of luck if something bad came of it.

26"

With a state like Oregon getting a $5,000,000 bonus from the Obama entitlement machine , there is no doubt that the Liberals are buying votes by upping Americans involvement on Entitlements ... http://nation.foxnews.com/president-obama/2011/09/29/obama-gives-oregon-5m-bonus-boosting-food-stamp-rolls

ttt

Unused Integral Tactical military Bivy. Crysallis model in woodland camo and retails for $250 and up. looking for $150, but will listen to resonable offers. This is the same bivy used in the military. For details here is the link... http://www.integralt...FTOKEN=14238990 The Crysallis bivy has a unique wire-stiffened dome shape over your face which provides for comfortable usage and total protections in foul weather. A rear facing tunnel vent in the hood allows for good air flow and ventilation when the Crysallis is fully zipped up. A continuous zipper with two sliders allows the top fabric to be unzipped and peeled back from the top of the head to waist level on both sides. The top is fully backed by no-see-um netting for a refreshing bug-free sleep on dry evenings. The Crysallis is ideal for trips where you will be sleeping fully stretched out. There are no skyward facing zippers. In wet weather the rain drains off the dome hood, perfect for drizzly conditions. Length: 90" fits to 6' 7" Width: 30" at shoulders tapering to 22" at foot Girth: 74" at shoulders tapering to 52" at foot Weight: 2 lbs 4 oz (1,055g) Packed Size: 14" x 5" diameter Woodland camo with black 200 D floor(1,070g) $250

Marlin sold pending funds

PM sent Glenn

That points out the Grey area in the law. The sign only states a hunting/fishing license is required for permission to gain access. It doesn't state you have to be actively hunting or fishing. The sign says written permission. Check the state website. All the information is there. You are absolutely right, when you have a hunting or fishing license in hand you have written permission. This post was about locking gates not whether you have permission anyway. A hunting license and gun in hand hunting gives you permission , but state trust land is not public land and is explained in the last post I made... You all need to go to the official Az state trust land web site if you want to educate yourselves on why some gates may be locked ... not saying it is fair or right but it is what it is

That points out the Grey area in the law. The sign only states a hunting/fishing license is required for permission to gain access. It doesn't state you have to be actively hunting or fishing. The sign says written permission. Check the state website. All the information is there. From the official web site http://www.land.state.az.us/support/faqs.htm "Q: Why do I need a permit to go on State Trust land for recreation purposes and how do I obtain a recreational permit? Arizona State Trust lands are not "public lands", as are Federal lands under the management of the U.S. Forest Service or the Bureau of Land Management. Federal "public lands" are managed for the benefit and use of the public, while State Trust lands are managed for the benefit of 13 Trust beneficiaries, which include the public schools and prisons. The Land Department's trust management responsibilities include requiring a permit or lease and charging a fee for use of Trust land. Exceptions to this requirement are licensed hunters and fishers, actively pursuing game or fish, in-season, and certain archaeological activities permitted by the Arizona State Museum." So this means if you are scouting state trust land you better be hunting coyotes too

I have seen many state here that our Hunting License is our permit for State Trust Land Use, and this is a half truth... While out in state trust land 2 years ago my brother and I were stopped. According to the officer and confirmed by talking to state trust land officials the permit is valid when actively hunting. This simply means if you are on state trust land you better have your license and your gun and state that you are hunting (at least coyotes). If not you can be cited for trespass. Just figured I would share this reminder since the subject is state trust land.