wetmule

270. I agree with most of what you said. I too believe the animal should get the credit. Just like when Secretariat or Smarty Jones wins the Kentucy Derby the horse should get the Prize. Or when someone wins a gold medal in the Olympics in Jumping or Dressage, I think the horse should get the gold medal. The reality is that there was someone who trained those horses, rode them and guided them through their respective courses. The same is true for Hunting and the taking of a record class animal. The person that took that animal got himself in shape (in some cases), spent the time scouting in the field, spent countless hours locating that animal and put him or herself in position to harvest that animal through a lot of hard work. Of course there is alot of luck involved including getting the permit, but there is alot of luck involved in just about everything where someone is successful. It's good to be lucky sometimes. I think you are right when you say that if B & C just entered the animal and it's score and not the person, there would'nt be a B & C record book and no one would enter their animals. I'm not sticking up for B & C but I think they handle those situations where someone is removed from their book as best they can. If someone kills a book deer that was later determined to not be taken legally or was determined to be taken by another hunter, what are their options other than to remove it all together, especially if they can't determine who the actual hunter was. Yes the animal looses out and doesn't get credit for the headgear he grew and it sucks for him. There is that human element that they incorporated into their system since their inception, that the hunter gets credit as well as the animal. I'm sure their feelings were, back in the day, that most hunters are legal and ethical and follow the game laws and the rules of their sport. Unfortunately for some in this day and age their egos get the best of them and they try to abuse and use the system for their own agendas and their own advantage. Those that have been caught have been removed. And yes for good reason. I think we have to take it for face value that most in their books have hunted legally, ethically and morally following the rules of fair chase, until proven otherwise. Are there probably a fair share of entries in their books that are not legit, yea, I'm sure there are. I'm also sure that the majority of the entries are legit. As I said earlier, that book or any other record book is not for me and I would never enter anything were I fortunate enough to take a great animal. I do enjoy reading them though. Unfortunately a few bad apples have spoiled it at least for me. Wetmule

Ernesto, Great post I like your attitude and views, they are commendable. Later, Wetmule

Interesting and volatile topic, Not sure where to start. My feelings are that I really like the Record Books B & C and the AZ Trophy book. I think they are a great reference tools and overall very interesting reading if you are a hunter into big animals. The B & C measuring system is the standard by which we all judge and view big game animals and it's fun to learn what critters score and see how proficient and accurate we can become at scoring them. That's where it ends for me. I have one animal entered in B & C and none in the AZ Book. I've been guiding here in AZ and throughout the west for over twenty years and have many clients with Book heads, mostly muleys, in the book. I would personally never enter anything in the books if I was ever fortunate enough to Draw again (another topic) and harvest a great animal, even if it were a world record. Speaking with first hand knowledge, even to those who have done lots of research, there is a very good reason why some people have been removed from the books, not mentioning any names or dissing anyone in particular. If you knew what I know on a couple of individuals, I think you would be disgusted. Those people are no longer in the limelight. And for good reason. I think the large majority of people hunt for the right reasons because they love to get out in the woods with friends and family, enjoy the love of the outdoors , the challenge, the beauty of the country and the animals. For a few they have other motives, to parlay their successes into lucrative sponsorships and commercial success and to see their names in the pages of books and magazines etc. For some it has gone to their heads and they have to continue the lies to keep up their appearance of the reputation they manufactured for themselves. I will continue to read and buy these books for the entertainment and research value and for the fact that more than likely the majority of the entries are legit. Unfortunately I'm sure there are many entries that are not legit and people are entering their heads for all the wrong reasons. Just my thoughts. Wetmule

Lark, Under this proposal. If a guy kills a world record and is offered a million bucks for it by Cabelas, he cannot legally sell it to them, if the permit he had when he took that animal was one of the recreational permits. If however it was a commercial permit that he drew, he would be able to sell the animal or parts thereof. This proposal would not prevent a guy with a recreational permit from selling his replicas of the antlers. It would also not prevent him from selling his story to a magazine or pictures etc., etc. It only applies to parts of that animal. This proposal also has nothing to do with being a windfall for guides or outfitters or being labeled (outfitters permits) as some have indicated. Even though I think this proposal is fairly simple it is harder to describe it than I thought. If you have any questions please call Dana Yost @ G & F, 602-942-3000, I'm sure he can explain it better than I, and I'm sure he would be happy to talk to anyone about it. There has been some talk about how taxidermists fit into this and how it affects them. Same rules apply, they won't be able to sell or buy antlers or capes to or from hunters if the animal in question was taken with a recreational permit. They can with an animal taken with a commercial permit. They can still buy capes etc. from out of state and from Indian Reservations. It is a good point to consider, however the taxidermists I have talked to say that it would hurt them a little but feel that if it will preserve resident status they would go along with it. I have to admit I've only talked to a couple of them. The only problem I can see with this is how are they going to enforce people selling capes antlers etc. ? Anyways, hope this helps. Later, Wetmule

To all, I was at the Phx G&F meeting last night, along with about 50 others. The 90% recreational and 10% commercial proposal may sound confusing but is is NOT. It is real simple, it is the only proposal that will have any measurable effect among all the other proposals. It is basically the only legal solution around the non-res cap issue. By making 10% of those permits commercial it would retain the cap that we had in prior years. Don't get hung up on the word Commercial, there just isn't another word to describe it. Non- residents can only apply for those permits 10%. Residents can apply for both the comm. and the recreational permits if they want and can even mix them on their application in their first or second choice. Virtually everyone at the meeting last night was in favor of the Proposal, there were maybe two or three out of fifty that were not. As Allen stated Scott Bales is an attorney (the finest constitutional lawyer in the state). He was hired by a newly formed group, Sportsman For Wildlife, basically a couple of fantastic local guys who put up alot of their own money to fight this and come up with a legal solution that is defenseable in court. These guys have ties to several of the local conservation groups - ADA, Elk Society, Antelope Foundation and ADBSS, and board members within those groups are involved as well. We all owe these guys a big pat on the back for stepping up with their time and talent, passion and mostly their money, TO FIGHT ALL ON OUR BEHALF. Back to the attorney, he is far more versed, exponentially, in constitutional law than the G & F attorneys. He says that this IS a legal way around the non-res cap issue and is defenseable in the courts. The problem the G & F has with this proposal is they don't want to get sued again. To those of us in favor of the proposal we are saying that is not a good enough reason at all not to move forward with a solution, and that being afraid of getting sued even though chances are that we would win this time, is not acceptable. Period. What we are saying is bring it on USO we want to fight this and as a matter of fact we think if George brings another suit against us that this time we will win. The two commissioners in favor of it are Commissioners - Gilstrap & The new guy ?,can't think of his name right now. Golightly is against it because he is the one that started the program of the Dept's that sells confiscated horns, antlers etc. at auction to the highest bidders. This program makes the Dept. about 20 -30 thousand bucks a year. That is why he is against it. The other two commissioners are on the fence. All the other proposals that are on the table are basically bandaids and although they will help to some degree they will not really give residents that much of a preference over non-res. To me they are no brainers and many of them should have been enacted years ago. The commercial & recreational permit proposal is the only one that protects our resident status and preference. If you are in favor of having a preference over non-res. in the draw process, I suggest you support it and take the survey.

Hi there Big Boy Buthster (AKA Michael Moore) you thsound like a reeel thsweet kinda guy, I thsuure wood like to bump into you up in the thstrip if you know what I mean! Wyoming huh! where men are supposedly men and sheep are nervous, I'll bet there are alot of nervous sheep in your neighborhood. What the heck are you doing applying for our hunts down here when you've got B & C bucks, bulls & bighorns running all over the hills and behind every bush up there, as you claim to have? Do you hunt with one of tthose Llamas up there ? I bet you do. If you do, I sure wouldn't want to be your Llama. Do us all a favor and stay away from our miserable cactus infested, snake crawlin, westnile virus infested ugly state. We've got enough snakes here that are much more appealing than you, and we don't need any more. Out