donniedent

To me the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. That being said, it is perfectly natural for a human being to be competative. Back in the day, guys bragged about how much their deer weighed, now we compare horns. Human beings are competative by nature. It will always be that way. I think it is about the challenge you present yourself with and the goal you set for yourself. I love to chase big muleys but my last deer was my smallest to date. Why? Because I wanted meat and there was a spike standing 62 yds away. I think what the authors were really talking about is the shift in passion. I see guys completely focused on the trophy only considering what others will think of their accomplishment. To me, this is where hunting has lost its soul. If your personal value is based on what others think, you have issues. If you hunt trophy deer for your own satisfation and don't really care what others think, more power to you, I can respect that. I see pictures of huge deer every year that NEVER hit these boards or the pages of a magazine because the hunters aren't in it for recognition. All that being said, I don't think any of us has a right to judge others intentions. If you hunt for horns, great. If you hunt for the hunt, great. If you hunt for meat, great. As long as its done ethically I support your reasons. I've done all three at one point or another and I will do all three in the future. The point is, its my hunt. I think if we spent more time focusing on what hunting means to us as individuals we wouldn't give a crap what reasons others hunt for. We would be able to look at someone elses "trophy" without envy or judgement because we are satisfied with ourselves. To me, the authors of those phrases are no better than anyone else because they are tring to put their stamp of approval on what a hunt should be for someone else. How much difference is there in a person who is proud of their trophy and a person that is proud they aren't a trophy hunter? Its all pride!

Hey guys, I've been looking into all this a bit. Couple things I learned and I 'd like to point out. It seems this process is still fairly liquid. If you guys can get out those maps and figure out where you feel mistakes are made, make a list of them. We can take those to the forest service and work with them on some changes to the plan. I know we lost alot of those out of the camping spots but like I said before, make a list. I wish we could get an interactive map somewhere that we could actually post little notes on. I'd be willing to bet that if we could organize this a bit, get a good solid, reasonable list of mistakes we feel were made and get that list to Steve Clark, we could petition to get things change around a bit. The AES has been working and fighting this for 4 years, I don't think all is lost, we just need AGAIN, to get involved in the process. Donnnie

People need to realize its NEVER going to be the way it was before we got here. There was a reason my ancestors killed the wolves out of the white mountains. People and predators, in most cases, cannot co-exist. I am concerned that the dept is fearful of the envoronmentalists. I'm all for diversity but at the same time that diversity has its limits. The real reason for the monument designation is that if they can restore the predator prey balance, they think they can use it to stop hunting. That's all any of this is about. They hate us hunters. If you give them an inch they will take a mile. We need to fight every change they try and make because there will never be a compromise with them... Never!

These people are so completely out of touch. Unfortunately it will spread. NY and CA is where all this garbage starts and AZ is becoming the next stop on the train for this stuff. Be prepared for another fight guys... Coming to a forest near you. We NEED to join groups like the AES who leads the charge on stuff like this. Steve Clark does a masterful job of keeping us informed on this stuff. Desertbull, thank you for posting this man. Don't be lulled to sleep this summer guys, keep on top of this stuff. Donnie Lee

Thanks for posting that John. We all need to take a look at what we're up against and make some calls to our senators and representatives to let them know we are behind that bill.

I would buy a few of those boxes Coach.... those things are B.A.!!!!

I like silence... right before 5 kids wake up!

First Off!!! I meant to say BIG success, just can't figure out how to fix it.. hahaha Just want to give everyone an udate on SWSA's first involvment in a water project. It was a great success. We had 14 guys out there and lots of little helpers. George from YVRGC made chili for our lunch and brought it out. We got 99.9 percent of what we wanted to get done completed. Can't remember every name so I won't name anyone, don't want anyone to feel left out because everyone gave 100%! Thanks to all our great volunteers and the WM Curtis Herbert. Game and Fish had everything we needed to get the job done. Big thanks to all of you that were there in spirit. Turkey opened last weekend and some couldn't make it but I know they were rooting for us. I know Kiababhunter took lots of pics so I'm sure he'll post them here when he gets the chance! Thanks everyone! Donnie Lee

The same exacty way they are wringing their hands over the Coconino road closures. Wait till its too late to do something. Same BS apathy. Did you ever hear the ADA position on HB2072? Does it even matter anymre? I'm out Donnie

Gary, go back and read thru the thread and tell me how you would interpret your comment if rolls were reversed. You would have taken it exactly how I did. And you seem to think my motivation to change things came about because of who??? You or anyone else? What motivated me to get all "fired" was watching people wring their hands about HB2072 when if they would have been more involved in the first place, it would have never come up. There would not have been the need. And... my passion for desert mulies. Like I said, CWT, MM, TAH are all great tools, but if its a man version of General Hospital, nothing will get accomplished. Oh and if you need to add "just saying" to the end of any post, you probably should re-think hitting enter. Donnie

I agree Ringer, I was taking issue with Elkoholics tone with me. He waited till I said I was done with the thread to try and bait me into an arguement. Not cool and fairly chicken you know what. I have zero respect for that. Wait till a guy is walking away then try and call him out ... not cool. Nothing wrong with using the tools at hand to fight the good fight but if its just the next "drama" for some, which I believe it is, this is just a soap opera. We need to use the nagtive attention to move onto something positive, not draw orgs we do not belong to into useless dialog. We would have had a much bigger impact had we all joined the opposing orgs and helped them fight. I tried to suggest that very early on but I think it was to no avail. I'm pushing very hard from every platform I can to get more sportsmen involved in the process as a whole. Sitting here and doing nothing but adding to the drama accomplishes little. I relent though, those on these websites did make a difference. I went too far with that comment. Donnie

Fellow hunters, There has been great debate and attention given to the recent HB2072 bill and the fight for/against it. I'm not here to discuss the bill, its proponents or opposition. I'm here to discuss conservation. It is my opinion and I have voiced it many times that if we as sportsmen had been doing all we could possibly do to support conservation and the fight against the anti's that there would have been zero excuse/reason to take tags and aution/raffle them off. In short, I think it was our own fault. All that being said I have a great challenge for all of you! Yaaaay! There are many water/habitat projects coming up. SWSA has one this weekend on the 442 water catchment near Aguila. Here's the challenge. Find a project that fits your schedule and attend and....... bring another sportsman you know and 1 kid with you. Try and find a sportsman that does not frequent these sites, doesn't have an opinion about HB2072 and is basically your average Joe that applies for tags and hunts when he's drawn. Apathy is our biggest enemy. I have personally spoken to leaders from various orgs and they all say the same thing... they can't get more sportsmen involved and they don't think it will ever change. I want to prove them wrong. I think if you have the guts to hunt, you have the guts for a good challenge. I want to prove to the various orgs, the dept and most of all to sportsmen in general that we can and will give our time if its needed. Take a kid hunting??? Take a kid to a water project... then take a kid hunting. Let them earn that hunt so to speak. Teach them that conservation is different than consumption. Teach them to give their time to wildlife and true conservation efforts. I realize I'm preaching to the choir on this and that many of you give your time willingly and without expectation of anything in return. Lets all accept this challenge and do something outside our personal comfort zone. Lets show the dept and the orgs that we do care about conserving wildlife and we don't need to auction tags off to raise the funds to get projects done, we can do it thru volunteering our time and by the sweat of our brow! Donnie Lee donniepdr@gmail.com

I absolutely understand I'm preaching to the choir with some and if you look at my last post I adressed that. If you are one that already gives your time and efforts, I truly commend you and you have my utmost respect. The reason I posted this thread was do to the fact that we as hunters have become apathetic and have allowed those like yourself to do the lions share. If we want to truly change things and remove the excuse for legislation like HB2072, then we had better step in a big way or we are going to lose everything you and others have fought so hard to preserve. Donnie Ouch! Kind of harsh! I almost feel like you are 'preaching to the choir'. Yes, there may be a lot of room for improvement, but.... I think many of us on this forum DO get out and do our share of volunteering for wildlife, I know there is always more to do, but I have been to quite a few work projects and I have seen more than one CWT sticker on a vehicle. My husband and I did Adopt-a-Catchment and had a blast with it, a lot of work, but well worth it! Also, I've been to the banquets where CWT'ers also 'put there money where their mouth is' donating a lot to wildlife which helps make the projects possible. I agree with you though, there's plenty to do!

Don't you dare apologize if you were in the hospital! I'm glad and happy to see you guys step up! I'm really not a jerk, I swear. I just hate to see such a lack of participation among sportsmen in general, let alone my freinds on this site. Pretty evident, if you already belong and volunteer, there's no need to post here.

I've sat here for over a week without continuing on this thread because I said I was done. I have found my genuine reasons for stepping up insulted by someone and I can't sit without responding. Elkoholic, evidently you include yourself in "keyboard jockey activists" camp. Thats cool. As for your first statement about guys fighting HB2072. I was one of them. What is a fair estimate of the total number of folks that sent emails... 200... 300? Shoot, I'll give you 1000. I know for a fact thats way, way over the true number but I'll give you that. 1000 sportsmen out of half a million... do you think it was that? Or maybe it was the Cattlemens association. They draw alot more water than 1000 of us. Or maybe it was the NRA? They quietly fought this deal all along. You want to call it a big success that you sit behind your keyboard? Have at it. Your second comment... and that is a gem by the way. Who do you think you are to presume my reasons for being so fired up? Troy, Travis, Bruce and Dale started the ball rolling on SWSA 4 years ago and I can promise it wasn't because of you and your keyboard. I would have been right in the middle of that deal had it not been for the fact that I was living in Wyoming 1000 miles away. The internet and these sites are a great tool for communication but if it ends there, which 99% of the time it does, what use is it? I haven't seen you take my challenge on this thread: http://forums.coueswhitetail.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=32547 Maybe its because there's nothing to argue about in that thread? Again, you stay here and argue with the same 10 guys you always argue with, you know where I will be. BTW the 442 project was a great success. Just saying BTW, were you bummed out in Buckeye cuz you didn't get to argue with dept? I bet you were but you'll never admit it. Donnie

Well... we can see how fast this topic died. 2 full pages on a forum upgrade. 4 pages on Coconino road rules you can't do anything about now... its too late and 3 pages about steering problems in a Dodge. 1 page and 8 people willing to step up and do something real for wildlife. This is sad. We deserve whatever the heck we get!!! Donnie

You know what is funny? AES has been fighting this for a long while now and while the fight was going on, everyone had very little to say about it. Now that its actually happening, everyone is wringing their hands over it. Where was everyone when this could still be fought? I'd have to go back and look but I remember seing a few threads about this and guys talked but evidently thats as far as it got. Chalk another one up to apathy. You guys can disagree with me all you want. I'm not here to beat up on anyone or cause an argument but its truly the same ol' same ol' when it comes to how we as sportsmen handle things. We had better get proactive like some did with HB2072 and some are with the Kiabab watershed deal because these things will happen if we continue with our apathetic ways. We lost a few roads and it sucks that we did but we are about to lose a huge area that is beloved by many. Time to pony up guys!!!! Donnie Lee

You can't beat the 4runners for a little smaller hunting rig. If you aren't towing anything thats the way to go. They hold their value better that probably any suv. The one problem with the newer mid 90's and up is their rear springs get soft. My brother in law had one and thing was always bottoming out. I can't imagine you'll be doing anything too crazy so a 4runner would be fine if you aren't towing with it. If you get a built 4runner, it will go anyplace a stock bronco would go but it better have some add ons. I can promise you a stock 4runner won't go where my stock bronco will go. In 78-79 Broncos came with a dana 44, a 351m or a 400, an automatic or a c6 4 speed tranny, an np205 transfer case, straight front axel and the 9" rearend. Spare parts are cheap and EVERYWHERE. Basically bullet proof. The NP205 transfercase transfers power from the transmission to the front drive shaft. The NP205 is a gear driven transfer case versus the cheaper chain driven cases. Chains can stretch and break, gears can't. The ford 9" rearend is one of the strongest rear differentials ever made but some have been known to leak a little. Sorry... I'm a Ford guy and love to talk about old broncos... I'll shut up now. Donnie

Those years Broncos were ok. Mostly 302's and push button 4x4. Independent front supension. If you can find one with a 351w you'll be happier. I have a 78. The best broncos ever made were 78's and 79's... second generation. They were made to compete with the k5's and beat the snot out of them until Ford screwed it up in 1980. They went to the independent front and the 302. Anyway, you'll be more comfortable in the late model Bronco but it can't do what the old ones can. Alot of guys that are serious Bronco nuts pull the independent front end out and put straight front axels in them. Good luck though. Make sure when you're looking to check the rear mains in the 302's for leaking and check the front end for the same and if you do get one pull the autolockers off and put manuals on. Donnie

Oh and if you don't have a kid to take pm me... I have 6! My dad told me how that happens but I didn't listen. Joking aside, if you don't have kids you know someone who does. They are the future of hunting! Donnie

Excellent idea!!! Funny enough, I was thinking the same thing. How about a blogspot page called "Conservation Corner"? Tell you what guys.. I'll put my money where my mouth is. If we get say... 50 people to commit to my challenge on this thread I will build and maintain a blogspot page dedicated to keeping sportsmen informed on the various projects going on throughout the state.How does that sound??? Feel free to suggest a better name too.... PLEASE Donnie

Awsome Snapshot. I know they are doing alot more projects down there. One thing me and buddy are working on is getting a list of catchments in region 4 that need attention. Contributing could be as easy as going to a catchment and cleaing bees out of the water or clearing brush out. Deer will stop htting a water source if its too brushed in and there are places for lions to hide. Contact the WM in charge of you favorite unit and see what they need and where. One thing you guys need to remember is that if you join in on a water project, you might find a new hunting spot. Maybe a catchment you've never seen before. They are also great spots to do some lion calling on some of the new "daylong" hunts. You might also get to spend some time with dept employees. Those guys are a wealth of knowledge and tend to open up a bit more on projects. The worst that could happen is you make a few new friends. Donnie

I have no problem with the auction tags that we currently have and how the funds are handled. I do not however think that funds raised by public tags should be controlled by private entities. The point of my statement is to hopefully get folks fired up and take some personal accountability for our public renewable rescources... wildlife. If we want to say that wildlife belongs to all of us, we had all better be willing to help conserve that wildlife. "YEAH thats my dog, I don't feed it, I don't give it water, I don't provide shelter for it or take it to the vet... but thats MY dog and you'd better not try and take it from me." One hundred and seventy some odd views and 2 sportsmen who accept the challenge. Maybe they were right... sad.

That right there is way cool. Goes to show that you do not need to belong to an org or wait for a big project to do something. I'm completely impressed. And... On top of that you son wants to do a conservation project for his eagle project... You set the bar high brother!!! Donnie

Here's my last post on this topic. If there are some that want to sit here and pound the AZSFW and the ADA into powder have at it. I personally don't think it produces one ounce of good fruit. I also don't believe it will add one person to the list of those that want to do more for wildlife comservation. This is NOT going to get more of those that don't frequent these sites to join our ranks. I'm not singling anyone out but we can all sit here and play keyboard jockey activist but how many projects does that get done? From now on, you can find me fighting to get more sportsmen involved in conservation projects, the commission meeting process, predator hunts and youth recruitment. Arguing with folks that I agree with 99.999 percent of the time is a waste of my time.no hard feelings toward any of you... At all. Thanks for the debate, I've enjoyed it! Donnie Lee Donniepdr@gmail.com 602.677.4537 Feel absolutely free to contact me if you want to discuss any of the topics I mentioned above! Look forward to talking to any and all of you!!!