-
Content Count
660 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
5
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Calendar
Everything posted by donniedent
-
Elkoholic, Trust me when I say AZSFW by name has zero chance of surving IMO. They are toxic and bad juju. What we need to watch is where those intimately involved go. We have some good watchdogs out there and they will let us know what is going down at the legislature. The BEST things we can do to battle this is to eliminate the excuses used to grab tags and excuse number one is to fund the fight against the antis. So how do we do that? I think the best way to do that is with numbers. I also believe that the best approach to building numbers is a positve campaign. The anits don't show commercials about hunters, they show commercials about kittens and puppies. We could learn a thing or two from the antis on fundraising and campaigning. Donnie
-
Thom, you might be completely correct. I know that when AZSFW was first getting going I refused to support them because I believed there were ties to Utah. I try to assume the best about people in public as to not create hard feelings. I also cannot even fathom trying to assume the intention of those I have never spoken to. If their motivations came to full fruition in HB2072, then now we know. I guess you can only assume that to be true at this point. I think AZSFW going away is a good thing and I truly believ that will happen. Donnie
-
Couple thoughts I forgot to add... The commission is willing to listen and we need to take advantage of that. The more voices that are represented, the more they will listen. G and F does hunter surveys, we need do them as well... On the ground, when guys minds are on hunting. Youth.... We need to get our youth involved in projects too. I see no better way to battle apathy than to teach our kids different. Teach them that we owe it to the wildlife we love to create a better habitat for them to thrive in. Teach them to predator hunt. If all we do is teach our kids to hunt, we might be passing on the apathy that exists now. Donnie
-
No mention of that. Randy was representing the ABA, he is not the pres. I did not get the chance to meet him either. Here is what I have gathered about AZSFW. I do believe that started with the right intentions. It was started with the intention to gather funds to fight the political battles. Member orgs gave money to support it and fund the fight. I believe as time went on and the economy went south, some orgs stopped giving them so much money. In an effort to replace lost funds HB2072 was conceived. Nobody had the money to give them so to survive they had to do something. My personal opinion is that they were never going to gain much traction with average joes that were educated about the Utah group because of how close their names were, so... There wasn't much money that was going to come from that direction. Many of the people closely involved with HB2072 have done a lot of good things for Arizona wildlife. One horrible idea and plan has tainted otherwise good names. There's a lot going on here. You have orgs that pulled out of AZSFW completely. You have orgs that do not support HB2072 but have not pulled out. And yet other orgs that have not said anything. I personally believe that AZSFW is done. I think we waste ammo shooting at a sinking ship. I would like to see focus shift to moving ahead. There was a lot of energy created by opposition to the bill but... Not all energy is good energy. If we don't convert the negative energy into positive energy, it will soon be wasted. We can continue to chase down the ADA and others but to what end? Wouldn't our energy be better utilized in a positive move forward? As Kent stated, yes... Arizona sportsmen do a lot to support conservation efforts by buying licenses and gear. I agree that we should create greater ties and support the national orgs. I don't like to see state orgs overly involved in politics either but sometimes it is unavoidable. I would like to see a movement by all the orgs in the state to gather more support from average sportsmen. I think various groups should get volunteers on the ground during the hunts to go and visit camps. Sit down at a campfire with average hunters and ask them what they would like to see happen. What better time to get a feel for what they think? You could create e-mail lists that could be shared by the different orgs so we can truly create a means of communication with the public. I myself would be more than happy to get out and talk to folks. These boards are good but in the end, you are preaching to the choir. We need to find a way to connect with more sportsmen. Donnie
-
The first words out of Randy's mouth at the last commission meeting was "We do not support HB2072" (we being the ABA) if that helps any.
-
Very well written. If I had to make a statement, thats what I would hope to be able to say and that represents my feelings.
-
I don't feel I defended the ADA again but you have a right to your opinion. I'm truly just trying to get us all to have a proactive focus on what we can do from this point forward. Thats all. Donnie
-
Don't assume that all the board members from the ADA supported 2072! Bad assumtion. If the Ada does lose members over this deal I don't know how good that is. Where will they go? Will they fade into the shadows? We diffinately don't want that. We need more people involved not less. Kent, I completely understand what you are saying. The point I keep trying to get back to though is ultimately it is our collective uninvolvement that left the door open for this to happen. Now, we can all sit here and question the ADA, but I hope we can each look in the mirror and ask ourselves why we have been apethetic. We ALL need to change and get more active but if we start focusing and casting blame, then we will probably forget to take accountability for our own part in this. Lets look at this another way. Orgs are created to organize and represent the voices of many. Now, if you have say... 300,000 sportsmen in the state and 6,000 of those are part of the org system, the org system that does 99.9% of the conservation work and you need funding. Funding to fight anti's, funding for conservation work... yada yada yada. Now 300,000 are taxing the rescource but only 6,000 are giving back, theres a huge gap there. So funds need to be generated. On top of that, you hear the voice of 6,000 and assume that they might represent the rest.... you can only assume. There is absolutely no possible way, even with auction tags, that enough money can be generated by 6,000 involved people to fight the anti's, let alone do conservation work. So, an idea is conceived to generate more funds from tags. Heres the line of thought, "if the masses don't want to be directly involved and help fund the fight... fine. We'll write legislation to get tags so we can fund the fight." They truly have no possible way of knowing what the masses will say because they don't have a voice... they're slient. So, if we have not let our voices be heard, it leaves the door WIDE open for people to assume what we want and need. And, we are trusting a few to have the honorable intentions when speaking for us. And yes, if you are not speaking out and staying involved, you are allowing a few people to speak for you by default! Now, do I agree with the whole idea? Absolutely not. Whether the masses are involved or not you can never assume to speak for them. Its the responsability of all parties involved to work to get the majority involved. But our own apathy and uninvolvement left the door wide open for this. Guys... we need to fund the fight somehow! If we as a collective group don't want a bill like 2072 and we don't want to auction off our tags, then we need to come up with some other way to protect our heritage. We fought to stop this bill... awesome! BUT IT IS NOW OUR DUTY AS SPORTSMEN TO FIND ANOTHER WAY TO DO IT!!!!!!!! Do we want to stop this kind of stuff? Do we want the masses to be heard? Then we need to commit to getting ourselves involved and take 5 other sportsmen with us. If just one.... just one... decides to join in the fight with each of us.... we just doubled in size. Lets get it done and stop questioning those that you don't want to represent you anyway. Its time to do this! Donnie
-
You know, I went back and read my last message and it didn't come out quite right. Anything that happens in this state, is our buisiness. I do get frustrated at times because I personally feel that if we as sportsmen had been on our game, there would be no need for more raffle tags. I have tried not to bad mouth any individual or org but on the flip side, I shouldn't appear to defend them either and when I re-read my last post, that's how I came across. I truly hope that someday, the majority of sportsmen will be actively involved in conservation. Whether it be donated funds or water projects, I feel we should all do something. I hope we can all find some sort of org to either be a member of or at least support. If your desire is to remain unafiliated, I appriciate that and support it but please find a way to support conservation efforts. Donnie Lee
-
May 8th and I'm trying to find out where. I will post here when I find out. If its here in the valley I will deffinately be there If its not here then I'm not sure I'll be able to make it. I'll darn sure try though. Donnie
-
I wasn't planning on jumping back into this but here I am. As far as the ADA or any org owing the general public an answer.... They don't represent the general public. Orgs represent their members, members who PAY to be represented. Now, if the ADA chose to share where they stand, great. If I truly represented an group and did not have my own agenda, none of you would know what I thought about 2072. If I were the president and I was asked about 2072, I might privately tell you what I personally think but I would not post my opinion on a public forum. If you truly represent your members, then you poll or survey your members and when you have the results you publicly post those results and say "The org I represent favors/doesn't favor such and such legislation" For John to get up here and say that ADA does or does not favor HB2072 before he knows where the people he represents stand, would be a dis-service to those same people. Each org has to decide how they handle such matters. Do they trust their leadership to speak for them without a poll, if so great. If not, it is imperative you know the opinion of your membership before you give an answer. Anything less would be misrepresentation. I'm not here to defend John or the ADA, I'm sure John and I don't agree on everything but I absolutely agree that if you aren't a paying member, you don't deserve any answers. Its our collective apathy that allowed this to happen, so for anyone try and pin an org down for answers is hypocritical. If we want answers to why this happened we can all take a long look in the mirror. No matter where you stand on HB2072, its time to find common ground and move forward. If you don't like how the ADA or any other org has handled things... Its very simple, don't join them. But realize, they are here and not going anywhere soon, the best thing we can do for our culture is to move forward and work together. This back and forth needs to stop. BTW, if you are unafiliated and want your voice to be heard, I believe there is a meeting of the Sportmans contituent group on May 8th. I sure I will see you all there. Lots of opinions will be heard and it will make a difference, unlike this kind of dialog. Donnie
-
There are a lot of guys inluding guys from the dept that won't make it because of the turkey hunts. No big deal at all. If I had a tag that's where I'd be.
-
John and George, thanks for the nice words. Honestly, I'm only fore front on this deal because of my big mouth and my lack of fear of looking stupid. There are a lot of guys out there a lot smarter and more expirienced that me. My true passion is for wildlife and to see guys my age involved. Its easy for us Joes to stand back and watch from afar. We see certain things happen we may not like and we start to make assumtions about intentions. As my involvement grows and as I'm able to speak to various leaders in orgs, I'm realizing that its not some ritzy job where you're rubbing shoulders with the elite. Its a lot of personal sacrifice with time, money and truck loads of frustration. Anyone in this state that is leadership in an org is there because they LOVE wildlife. There is truly no glory in it as far as I can see. And while I may have a different opinion on how things should happen, its very reassuring to see that all of these leaders are at least passionate about wildlife. If you want to deal with 100's of emails, phone calls every night till 10 o'clock, people bashing you on the inernet without being able to truly speak your mind because of who you represent and complete apathy from 90 percent of the people you are trying to help.... Step up and try and lead an org. Believe me when I say all of this guys because I'm just like you all and as regular joe as they come. Legislation will come and go, battles with antis will come and go and leaders we don't agree with will come and go but the true evil that is constant and the one we should truly fear is our own apathy. Donnie
-
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
DP, Thank you for the encouragement. John held true to his word and did call me. We had a great talk about alot of issues. The conversation was never strained or uncomfortable. He was very gracious and offered his assistance on any HPC proposals we may have region 4 in the future. Its a whole lot different when you can actually talk to somebody either in person or on the phone. Thanks again man and I will keep everyone informed on SWSA's progress as we move forward. If we all remember its all about conservation in the end, we can get along just fine. Donnie -
Things have been so darn tense lately I thought I'd try my hand at a little joking. I didn't mean anything by it man, just playing with you. My wife makes me watch Hallmark movies but I swear I don't like them... I swear!
-
I personally love uncle ted. But my question Snappy is why are you looking at the msnbc.com entertainment page? Seems a little suspect bro!!!
-
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
John, it was good to talk to you. P.S. Anyone that is interested in working on a water project on the 28th of this month, shoot me a pm and I'll give you the skinny!! Donnie -
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Funny, I never said anything about the ADA or its leadership. I simply said that I'd didn't feel the deer herds are getting the focus they deserve. As of the 2011 deer surveys in region 4, the deer numbers are down 70 percent is some areas. That's beyond alarming. I guess my question is, why do we have collared deer on the Kiabab when Game and Fish feels there are sufficient numbers there to recommend a raise in doe tags? And who is pushing for this study? So deer numbers are up on the Kiabab... Are they spending 10's of thousands of dollars to find out why? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I really would like to know. No hit on the dept, if they feel a study is in order, I support them 100 percent. Donnie -
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
I applaud the efforts of the ADA in reference to the 3bar. And yes, 3bar proved that of you remove all the predators that fawn survival was much greater, even under drought conditions. But, when and where are we going to remove all the predators? It will never happen. I agree with you about the effects of predators. One of my personal goals is to see a study done in the desert to document the effects of coyote predation. I have nothing to say about ADA leadership or agenda, I'm not a memember, what right do I have to speak publically on the inner workings? I fully admit to the fact that I have made assumtions, as many here have, about current leadership of all the orgs. I'm trying to educate myself and I'm not affraid at all to admit when I'm wrong. As far as meeting you Sunday.. I didn't even know who you were until after you got up to speak and you left before I got a chance to introduce myself. And you didn't appear to be in the mood to chat after your discussion with the board. As far as your phone call, I know I got a call from a 480 number and there was no message left so I had no idea it was you trying to call me. Had I known it was you I would have called you back directly. I have committed not to speak ill of any other org or leader of an org unless directly engaged. If you go back and read my very first post on this topic, I was indirectly defending your possition. I think you spoke well at the meeting and your obviously an intelligent guy. I didn't even fully agree with how the two commissioners handled you. I also noted in my first post that you did attempt to address the dec rifle hunts to no avail. 100 percent of my focus right now is on getting more hunters involved in conservation efforts in the areas they care about, areas i personally feel have been neglected. I am more than willing to meet you, talk to you and shake your hand. I take none of this personal. Donnie Lee 602-677-4537 Donniepdr@gmail.com -
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Do yourself and many others on this site a favor and review from the AZGFD reports on just where the funds for deer have been spent. There is a common misrepresentation on many forums that "most of the money goes north of the ditch". That is just not true. Ruth Gregory in the big game branch has all the funding numbers for ALL of the state. Get a copy and review just where the money has been spent. You will be surprised. Then go back 4 years and you will find that the land north of the ditch has received much less than that "small area" you referenced. You seem to have enough of an intellect to figure out that much of what is said on these sits is just not true.... but very popular. Then review the "grading reports" that the AZGFD puts together for ALL the HPC proposals. Who is at fault when a particular region places proposals that are 1) incomplete 2)Do not have NEPA or Arc work done 3) have no local commitment for matching funds 4)do not supply maps, photos or important data 5) have no ranching support or access agreements. I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ...... John, I don't recall saying anything about money spent. I said focus. You were at the meeting, how much time did Brian spend on the Kiabab and the strip? Most of the time Brian was going over that data. How many collared mule deer are there on the Kiabab right now... 20? How many collard mule deer are in the rest of the state? And why the heck are we collaring deer on the Kiabab? We know they are there. Its a strong deer herd, so strong that the dept feels its ok to have a doe hunt. How about the deer in region 4? I don't see anyone trying to spend $90,000 to collar 20 deer there. "I wonder if you will take the time to chase down this story ......" Partner, I respect your opinion and position but I do not appriciate your combative approach. I'm not here to fight with you and if you read thru all my posts on this thread you'll see that I'm trying to bridge a gap that was created by a bad bill and those that supported it. I'm trying to get the average hunter involved in the process. Does that threaten you in some way? And who was the last guy you tried to call out? George from Yuma Valley right? I might be uneducated as of now but I know for a fact that George knows a thing or two. And how has your current approach worked so far? Should we discuss your conversation with the commission on Saturday? Oh and yes, I am involving and educating myself in the process and I will be looking at all kinds of numbers very soon. Donnie -
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Thats a great attitude man. I can claim partial ignorance myself. Until I started hitting the boards of course. I think what you can do is look at where you hunt a little closer and decide what is the best thing you can do to help the animals. Talk to the WM's where you hunt, see what you can help them out with. If there are too many song dogs, kill song dogs. If there are broken or clogged drinkers, clean em out. If you find a brushed in tank with lots of hiding places for kitty's, go cut some limbs. It doesn't always need to be a monumental ordeal that costs thousands of dollars. I know one issue that I have wanted to focus on is all the mule deer between the Grand Canyon and Nogales. Small area, you know? Because so much of our HPC money comes from the Strip and the Kiabab, it stands to reason that those places would garner alot of focus but... we still have the rest of the state to pay attention to. There are alot of places in this fine state where the muleys are just having a rough time, they deserve as much focus as any other places in the state. I remember hearing that any Elk unit in the state has the potential to grow trophy elk.. Well, I think the same goes for muleys. I've seen typical muleys in the desert that would easily go 200" and been 60 yds from them. Who's to say that with conservative management and rain we couldn't rival Colorado with our muleys... I think we can. But, you have to make yourself heard. You have to get creative. I'm preaching to the choir here. One thing I really want to do this fall is get out during some of the desert hunts and visit camps. Talk to guys about what they are seeing and what they would want to see change and get their numbers. Get them involved in the process, let them know their voice matters. If we don't make some serious changes very soon, you better just take your kids hunting now because they might not be able to do it when they are our age. Donnie -
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
Well, the question we need to ask ourselves is why are people so apethtic? Honestly I don't know why. Maybe its a carry over from peoples feeling about our own government in that they don't feel they can make any difference. And... is their voice even heard? I think if sportsmen knew that they actually did have a say in what happened, they might engage a bit more. I don't know.... Donnie -
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
My post was directed at hunters as whole and is the sum of my own observations. I was speaking to myself as well. I'm absolutley no better than anyone else in that until very recently I did not take part in anything other than hunting. Maybe I am presume too much to try and point out the faults of my peers and in doing so, correcting my own apathy. I'm really trying to see both sides of the coin here. We can all sit and point across the isle at each other or we can accept responsability for our own downfalls and come together. I'm sorry, I'm starting to see how the apathy of the masses has forced a select few to take action. Do I agree with the all the actions taken? No.. but, I can tell you, theres not a whole lot I can complain about if I didn't involve myself in the process. Do you need to join an org to be a part of the process? No. But, who do we look to when the anti's come and try to take away our hunting privledges? You got it. With out fianancial contributions, the orgs in this state are ineffectual. I have said this what seems 100 times but if we had done our fair share in fianancially supporting the fight for OUR rights, AZSFW would not have had any reason or excuse (how ever you see it) to try and take tags and auction them off. I feel like a broken record. In the end, I really don't see anything changing. The majority of hunters will stay uninvolved and apathetic. Its really unfortunate. You think HB2072 was bad?? Wait until something really big comes along and we don't have the means to fight it. Do you really believe the anti's don't know we are vulnerable? They know what the economy is here, otherwise they wouldn't be trying that BS on the Kiabab. Its almost funny, all that money, effort and focus that has been placed on a very small portion of Arizona (too dang much IMO) and now we're faced with losing it. Very ironic. SWSA has big plans for a completely new kind of structure, one that will truly represent all sportsmen that choose to be involved. I'm very excited about it but, if sportsmen as a whole don't get involved it will all be for nothing. Sad really. For those that are stepping up and more so, those that have carried the torch despite our apathy... Thank you! Donnie Lee -
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
I'm going to add this.. I consider myself a pretty good judge of character. I got to spend some time with the president, the vice president, a former president and others from the ADBSS. I'm truly a nobody in every sense of the word. Just a guy with an opinion. I felt very welcomed and in speaking with those indivduals... I know for a fact that they would welcome any and all input from us regular guys. Actually I felt I was amongst regular guys. I am as guilty as anyone of pre-concieved notions and judgements and more often than not, I have been dead wrong. Can somethings change... definately, but how can they change if we don't involve ourselves? -
Commission meeting 4-14
donniedent replied to ThomC's topic in Political Discussions related to hunting
I hate to do it this way Snapshot but I'm going to... "I don't agree with a challenge to join a current org that is headed in the wrong direction, simply to try and change it. That can be a very difficult thing to do. This wrong direction does not apply only to Wildlife/Sportsman groups, but many other types of groups as well. The "Good old boys club" if you will." I don't completely disagree with what you are saying but let me throw this at you. Just like any group of friends, you hang out together, you talk about things, you meet each others families and you associate with those you have common ground with. Well I think it a very simlar situation for org leadership. I'm not saying its such a great thing but you seek out like minded people and if you are never challenged to step out of your own mindset, you simply won't change it. So, how do you change a mindset???? You offer an alternative opinion. You have a group of friends I'm sure and from the outside, you could be considered good ol boys. "The major obstacles I have seen in various Orgs/groups/Commissions etc., is you get a group of control freak Board members, that want to do do everything their way, regradless of member/public opinion. Homeowner Associations are a perfect example of this. Trust me, I have much experience in that arena." My challenge left another option... you could form your own group or.. join the Sportsmans Constituent group... I didn't see anyone from that March 22nd meeting yesterday either. And.... compairing a conservation org to a homeowners association isn't very realistic. "We have all seen some of the past G&F Commissions public meetings. They have made up there mind about issues, before that meeting is even held. But they have to have open public meetings, under the pretense that they actually care about public/hunter input. The current commission may or may not be that way, but we have all seen it in that past." I beg to differ. There was much discussion back and forth amongst the commissioners. There were changes made to the recommendations and made right there, on the fly, in that meeting. Besides... you weren't there! How can you make a judgement? The ABA president proved you completely wrong. He brought up an issue and got the changes I'm sure he had hoped for. If had not stepped up and tried to get more tags... the commission would have adopted the recommended 125 tags. "I would gladly join a Sportsman Conservation group if I can find one in the Tucson area that I believe is headed in the right direction, and would be a good fit for me. Unfortunately, I am a poor man, and I cannot travel all over the state at will. It is easier said than done for a lot of folks." I would be willing to wager that my bottom line differs little from yours... speaking and having a voice doesn't cost a dime! Listen bud, I'm not trying to beat you up or one up you. I'm truly not... but the way you talk... you're already beaten. Donnie Lee 602-677-4537