billrquimby

I saw one last week driving west on River Road in Tucson. It was on an older model two-tone (red and silver, I think) Bronco or Blazer. Bill Q

"When i was about 18 i went hunting in unit 23--i really don't want to say exactly where but it was north of Roosevelt lake in a very big and bad canyon. I was working down through a steep side of a canyon through some real thick scrub oak when i noticed a cave that was big enough to walk up right into. I poked my head into the cave and found that it went in a ways, so being the nosy dude i am i walked in about 100 feet and found myself looking at an Indian resting on 4 tall tree trunk and some kind of animal fur wrapped around him--being the better part of an Indian myself it gave me goosebumps all the way down my back to my toes. My old uncle told me if i ever walked into a burial cave or ground that the spirits of the persons family will be watching and if i desecrate the site by taking anything or touching anything that i would be punished for it--i didn't ask what the punishment would be. I noticed a lot of pottery around the cave, a bow with arrows, one was nocked in the string, some blankets and an old rifle leaning against the burial stand." TLH: There could be all kinds of such places but this is the first I've ever heard of burial caves in central Arizona. I know absolutely nothing about this subject but I was under the impression that Arizona's desert tribes buried or cremated their dead. Cochise, for example, was supposed to have been buried and his grave was trampled by horses so that it wouldn't be found. It never was. When I was just a kid sixty years ago I watched a group of Yuma Indians burn a corpse on their reservation across the river from Yuma in California. I was told this was done regularly by all the tribes along the river. Do you think there is a chance that the dearly departed may have been an Indian who got sick or injured and crawled into that cave and died? BillQ

The order form came out garbled when I opened the downloaded file on my Mac. I've emailed to have a form mailed to me. Anyone else have this same problem or is it only my machine? Bill Quimby

"I won't get disgusted and i will stay in there and do what we all need to do." More power to you. Arizona's sportsmen need a loud and unified voice. We haven't had one for a long, long time. BillQ

"That's a shame because single species groups aren't set up to do what AWF used to do. .... But recently there have been some encouraging signs. I'm watching to see whether hard-core hunters like TLH continue trying to shape AWF's direction. If he doesn't stomp off in disgust pretty soon, I'll have to take another look at that group. If AWF could return to being a statewide voice for hunters, a huge hole would get filled." Larry: I agree with everything you've said, especially about single species groups. Arizona needs something similar to the old AGPA, a super strong association of ALL of Arizona's hunting, fishing and shooting clubs, with a full-time, personable and knowledgeable executive officer paid to grow membership, raise funds, and be our mouthpiece. Anyone out there got $500,000-$750,000 or so for seed money? LTH may say we already have this in the AWF but I'm afraid it has a long way to go to recover its former glory, in my opinion. I wish it well. Its left turn, incidentally, began not long after its name change and AGFD's adoption of the permit-only hunting system, which AWF leaders opposed then supported. Neither may have been the cause, but the timing was the same. BillQ

"That's a shame because single species groups aren't set up to do what AWF used to do. .... But recently there have been some encouraging signs. I'm watching to see whether hard-core hunters like TLH continue trying to shape AWF's direction. If he doesn't stomp off in disgust pretty soon, I'll have to take another look at that group. If AWF could return to being a statewide voice for hunters, a huge hole would get filled." Larry: I agree with everything you've said, especially about single species groups. Arizona needs something similar to the old AGPA, a super strong association of ALL of Arizona's hunting, fishing and shooting clubs, with a full-time, personable and knowledgeable executive officer paid to grow membership, raise funds, and be our mouthpiece. Anyone out there got $500,000-$750,000 or so for seed money? LTH may say we already have this in the AWF but I'm afraid it has a long way to go to recover its former glory, in my opinion. I wish it well. Its left turn, incidentally, began not long after its name change and AGFD's adoption of the permit-only hunting system, which AWF leaders opposed then supported. Neither may have been the cause, but the timing was the same. BillQ

Awesome critters for sure <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Deerslam: thanks. Deer certainly are awesome. and by deer I mean every kind of antlered game. I've shot deer on five continents and love them all. (Coues deer are No. 1, however.) The dumbest caribou is twice as smart as the smartest wild sheep, in my humble opinion. BillQ

TLH: Your view of the the AGFD history is correct, except that the AWF was called the Arizona Game Protective Association until about 1966 or 67, when then-AGPA president Bill Winter (a Phoenix advertising agency owner) pushed for a more politically correct name. AGPA/AWF's past contributions to hunting, fishing and conservation cannot be disputed. AGPA/AWF had total control over who received game commission appointments ... until Bruce Babbitt became governor. That was about the time Bill Hardt left the AZ Senate, too. Since then the AWF has had much less influence. Like our hunting opportunities, the AWF's numbers have been shrinking. Bill Q

Josh: I thought I'd seen everything in Arizona but I've never seen such big agaves growing wild. By any chance were there any signs of an old cabin anywhere near? Bill

I don't care what you call them, I love to hunt all types of antlered game. Bret M: here are a couple of carp I drew from memory. I see mule deer in my yard in Greer, and off the roads up to 9,500 feet. Do they still qualify as "bottom feeders?" BQ

Call 'em what you want. I love all antlered game. Bret M.: I often see carp at elevations up to 9,600 feet near my cabin. Not exactly bottom dwellers.

Lark: By politics I mean real politics with deep pockets paying for expensive multi-media campaigns to capture the most votes from the general public. Campaigns in which he with the most money wins all the marbles. I knew well most of the commissioners who served from 1965 until I retired from the Tucson Citizen in 1994, and can think of none who wasn't a "no bs outdoorsman" (or woman). They served not because they saw the commission as a stepping stone to some other position but because they thought they had something to contribute. Going from the game commission to a better appointment has never happened to my knowledge, and I doubt that it ever will. Anyone who accepts an appointment for that reason isn't living in the real world. Commissioners receive no pay, and cannot charge back all of their actual expenses. It costs them a lot of time and money to serve. They do get a lot of angry phone calls at all times of the day and night, and have to spend a minumum of three days a month away from home attending meetings in every corner of the state. They are cussed and discussed and seldom if ever praised for their effort and dedication. I personally know only one commissioner now, but I do know he has hunted and fished avidly all his life. Bill

I thank you, too, Amanda. I feel I've gotten to know personally a few of the forum's contributors. For curiosity's sake I'm interested in knowing the names of the top few sites. Bill

Larry: It had more to do with personalities and actually involved very few people. Sen. Bill Hardt of Globe, chairman of the Senate Natural Resources Committee, was a personal friend of George Parker of Amado. George wanted a five-year moritorium on deer hunting "to save the deer." AGFD director Bob Jantzen wanted a pay raise and promised Hardt's committee that he "would do something for the deer" (his exact words) in exchange for its approval of the raise. Jantzen returned to his agency and sent a memo to the game branch and regional supervisors ordering them to come up with a system that would reduce deer hunters by 30%. The permit-only system resulted. There was talk of "a domino effect," with wildlife managers away from urban areas saying permits weren't needed in their units but they were afraid they would be over-run with hunters from Tucson, Phoenix, and Flagstaff if their units didn't have permits, too. Parker was a crusty ol' rancher, but this was not why he wanted the moritorium. He also guided influential friends from all over the world (including Prince Abdorreza of Iran for whom I later wrote a biography) and was having trouble finding the big bucks that he produced when he was younger. I knew George well and even hunted with him a couple of times. I think he honestly felt a moritorium was needed "to save the deer." The AGFD and most sportsmen believed the herds were not in trouble, however. The Tucson Rod and Gun Club and the Arizona Wildlife Federation were opposed to the permit system at first, but Parker got to AGFD commission chairman Jack Mantle of Tucson. Leaders of the local sportsmen's clubs met at my house in early 1970 with Mantle to try to convince him to block Jantzen's action, but , Mantle pushed the other commissioners for and got a 5-0 vote to go to permits. Mantle was an avid quail hunter, and did very little (if any) deer hunting. Bill

Larry, Mike, Bret: You are correct that access to our public land is the number one problem affecting Arizona?s deer hunters. Number two is the declining number of permits that results when permit numbers are based on access. In effect, whether we get to hunt or not is determined by parking spaces and not by deer population trends. I don?t think I?ve advocated that we return to more than 100,000 deer hunters. What I said was, ?We can have that many again if you will accept a lower hunt success and a different hunting structure, and ALSO DEMAND ACCESS TO ALL OUR DEER HUNTING AREAS.? A different hunting structure requires some creative thinking. Although I?m not advocating it, a two-month season would result in just one opening weekend. If someone wanted to escape hunters all he or she would have to do is wait three or four weeks before going out. Selling tags over the counter and ending unit-by-unit restrictions would result in hunters distributing themselves into areas where deer populations are highest (and can take the pressure best). It has been shown elsewhere that hunter success rates would drop, but the deer kill would not rise proportionately as participants increased. Access to our public lands must be restored first, however. I repeat, I?m not advocating two-month seasons. I?m only pointing out that something else is needed. The present lottery system is a proven failure, in my opinion, or we would have more hunting opportunities instead of fewer today. I could say all this makes no difference to me. I?m an old man and no longer physically able to hunt as I did before my heart attack. I suppose I?ve already killed my last whitetail in Arizona. That doesn?t bother me because I?ve taken more than my share of game and have been fortunate to have had experiences that others can only dream about. What does bother me is that deer hunting permits in Arizona have been consistently shrinking an average of 1,900 permits per year over the past 35 years. For the sake of hunting?s future this cannot be allowed to continue. We have too little political influence today. Just imagine how little we will have when there are only 21,000 of us in ten years, or just 2,000 in twenty years if something isn?t done. I shouldn't worry, I guess. I won?t be here in either case. Larry, our friend, the late, great John Doyle, and his chums did change the way dedicated whitetail hunters hunt but I suspect the majority of people continue to hunt as O?Connor did. Guys with $39.95 7x35 Walmart specials on their necks still come home with deer. Bill

"Josh -- Have you ever had a hunter not involved with your chase shot a cat either before you got there or when the dogs are chasing him. ==Buckhorn " Josh congratulations. That lion is almost as old as I am. Buckhorn -- I had someone shoot what should have been my first bear out from under me -- literally. It was many years ago and I was following Jim Bedlion and his hounds on Doyle Peak in the San Francisco Mountains above Flagstaff. We started out on foot from the sheep camp on the north side and chased the bear over the top into the Inner Basin. When we got to the summit we could hear the dogs barking treed below us. We were starting down to them when we heard two shots, and then the dogs stopped barking and returned to us. Some #$%&*()@! had come along and shot my bear out of the tree! Anyone who knows that mountain knows how hard we worked and how we felt when that happened. I shot another, probably larger bear with Bedlion the next weekend, but I'll never forget that first, tough chase and its outcome. Bill Q

Commissioners are appointed by governors, but for staggered five year terms. This means a commission may consist of commissioners appointed by three different governors. State law requires that no more than three of the five commissioners are of the same political party, and that they be "knowledgeable" about Arizona's wildlife and fish. Tradition calls for them to come from different regions around the state. This system keeps partisan politics out of wildlife decisions, and keeps the panel from reinventing the wheel every couple of years. On the other hand, electing commissioners in a general election would bring partisan politics into the mix. Do you want a state political party boss setting seasons by threatening to pull support from a political hack? Do you want the Legislature to set our seasons and bag limits? Do you want PETA and similar groups making big political donations to elect their own commissioners? Do you really think that the majority of the people in this state would vote to keep a sportsman-dominated comimission? Be careful of what you wish for because you may get it. Bill Q

1969.

"Staying home is your choice." Mike: Not so, at least no so in my case. I dropped a pickup truck on my left arm on a sheep hunt and haven't been able to draw a bow ever since. (I took a mule deer and 5 or 6 pigs with bows before that accident.) I'm afraid I'm stuck with the luck of the draw. The point is not whether you or I can draw a tag, but the fact that there is a very real threat of all of us losing our right to hunt at all as fewer and fewer of us are allowed to go out. We need more hunters, not fewer, if our traditions are to be passed on to coming generations. Bill Q

Dittos from me, Josh. Bill Q

Ernesto I never tried "birria," but I would like to. How is it prepared? Years ago when I was president of its Past Shooters Club we used to host 30-40 members of the One Shot Antelope Hunt Club from Wyoming and elsewhere. Everyone brought their shotguns or bows and a few friends and I took them quail and javelina hunting. It was quite a bash. I got to be very good at pit barbecuing. The four or five pigs our group shot each year were frozen and cooked the next year. Everyone raved about our meat. We ended the hunts when our guests could no longer buy archery pig tags over the counter. Bill

Mike: You?ve explained perfectly why you don?t care when more rifle hunters must stay home. Bill

Amanda: With one exception, javelina meat tastes to me like biting into a ditch digger's underarm in August. That exception is when it is buried and barbecued Mexican-style in a mesquite fired-pit until the meat falls off the bone. Add a pot of red beans, some cole slaw, and a few warm corn tortillas and I'll arm wrestle you for the first plate. Bill Q

Mike Yes, I believe our deer resource could stand 100,000 or even more hunters. My family and I hunted here when we had that many, and deer were not exterminated, hunters were not on every rock, and the sky did not fall. We can have that many again if you will accept a lower hunt success and a different hunting structure, and also demand access to all our deer hunting areas. The highest deer kill comes on an opening weekend. Under the present system we have three or four opening weekends in many units, more if you count the archery, muzzleloader, youth season, first season, second season, and the late season to say nothing about another archery season. Talk about pressure. Our permit system in its conception was an ugly political scandal that should have resulted in the firing of the game department director and the ousting from office of a too powerful Arizona senator. The director got his pay raise and we got a 30% cut in hunting opportunities the first year. More cuts followed, and more will come. I have always known that the Game and Fish Commission and Department do not make decisions regarding wildlife based on money, and I?ve never said they did.. If our system is the best model of resource management in the West, how come our hunting opportunities keep shrinking? I've watched Arizona deer hunter numbers go from 105,000 to 70,000, to 60,000, to 50,000 to 40,000. What will it take for you and other hunters to get angry, too? Just 30,000 of us allowed to hunt deer in this huge state? 20,000? 10,000? 5,000? 1,000? Bill

Buckhorn: As far as I know, management of wildlife was always the sole domain of the states (except in national parks and wildlife refuges) until passage of the Migratory Bird Treaty, which put certain bird species under federal control. The U.S. Endangered Species Acts of the late 1960s and 1970s took more control from the states. In the mid-1970s, states lost their traditional control of wildlife on Indian reservations through court rulings. Arizona?s elk, bison, pronghorn, and desert bighorn hunting have always been permit-only since legal hunting of these species began in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. Permit-only deer hunting began in 1970; permit-only javelina hunting followed soon after. It has only been within the past 30 years or so that the National Forest Service has had wildlife biologists/managers in each forest. The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has exclusively managed its wildlife refuges in all of my memory. In my opinion, federal wildlife management would be a disaster. Would you travel to D.C. to testify on a deer-hunting proposal? How long do you think we?d have bighorn, mountain lion, and bear seasons if the feds were setting seasons? Do you think residents would have preference on permits? Bill Q