dave

Mr. Qimby, Thanks for the observations Bill. I do need to clarify the points I was making. 1. Respect the opinions of the sportsmen’s groups and hunters that support you, drive 200 miles to a Commission meeting @ $3.00 a gallon for gas and get arrogantly asked by the Chairman if they are DONE YET??? 2. They most certainly have the power to grow animals by the actions they take to harvest (KILL) them. When the ranchers were complaining about too many elk, they killed the heck out of cows and made major changes in elk population. They have just changed the buck-doe ratios for deer. I expect they will do the same for elk. They can't make it rain but they can sure grow more animals by the way they manage them. This might include arial gunning of coyotes and stronger predator management policies. 3 & 4. If they worked with the Sportspeople in this state, they may have support for an initiative that would supplement revenue by 50 million dollars a year. This could buy accessible habitat and access if it is allowed to. The average resident hunter in this state has been majorly impacted by the fact the Commission and Department was not able to protect them from Mr. Taulman. When the average resident hunter had the opportunity to request that the 10% NR cap be made a statute to further protect them, three of our current Commissioners lobbied against it. One of them felt it was not necessary to protect us, O.K. so what is wrong with doing it??? Not sure exactly why the other two opposed it. EGO, CONTROL, ETC... If I am incorrect about any of this, I will gladly apologize for having an incorrect impression from all I have observed. Garth, Thanks for pointing out the 20% ratio between all weapons and archery correctly.

4 cups of coffie, two cigars and whats for lunch? Snooozzz This is the important stuff right here.

What should be the goal of collecting data? What should be the goal of the survey cards? I have been told several times that the Department receives approximately 50% of the survey cards back and that is a good response, more than adequate to base their data on. So what is the model? We trust 50% reporting from all weapons groups but do not trust archers? We must have mandatory reporting for archers? We must put archery to a draw because we are not able to actually count their harvest and we don’t trust them? If they use a weapon that is not as productive as modern rifles and 20% of them are able to kill something, we must stop it before they eliminate all of our animals? We must stop the weapon that has the least impact on the resource so we can justify more tags for the weapon of our choice? We don’t really care about what happens to the animals, we are just selling permits and getting $7.50 per application. We can’t get sportsmen to support a tax incentive because we don’t know how to manage our money. We can’t acquire more habitat or access because we don’t have the money. We couldn’t grow more animals in the habitat because we don’t have the money. We can't grow more animals because ranchers complain. We can't do predator management because someone might complain. We can’t require mandatory reporting for all weapons for all species because that would cost money. That would also have a negative approach in appealing to all hunters by showing that we may distrust some. This may not fit into our recruitment and retention plans. Guess how much time is spent at each Commission meeting dealing with the ones that have broke the law (time certain)? Must be bowhunters. There is a great disservice being done by this Commission and this Department. This is what they do not do: 1. Respect the opinions of the public. 2. Grow animals. 3. Grow habitat. 4. Grow access. They distrust us, THEY HAVE PROVEN WE CANT TRUST THEM. The feeling is mutual. Who can trust who and who can work together? I am slow but I am not stupid. I see what they are doing. I know who I can trust.

I don't know what went wrong but this beast showed up on my trail cam. I musta set some button wrong somewhere. I don't even know what this thing is

It is hard to keep up with progress. Always keep your switch in the middle. Know what a track looks like. Keep your hair short and don't trip over your belt. Nice pictures. Andy is becoming the trail cam guru.

The surveys are vital to establishing harvest objectives. Are they so vital they should be accurate? Mandatory reporting along with having the public participate in the surveys would limit the ability of non-factual information that could be used to construct whatever you want to construct. Thus, here we are. I believe I remember a couple Commissioners say something about surveys conducted by the public that were invalid. I disagree that the Commission are the ones to blame. I have never heard the Department recommend to them mandatory reporting for all species and all weapons groups. The Department recommended that archery deer harvest reporting be mandatory. The Department recommeded it. The Department recommended that any archery deer harvest that reaches 20% success go to a draw. How do you count 20% of an unknown? What is mandatory about what they call archery harvest reporting? There is nothing factual about it. It is only a mouth tool to say they will do what they want. They are not willing to do factual survey counts of animals, browse or harvest. Factual reporting would really put a cramp in their style. Facts would not allow them to push the pencil enough to support the financial goals they have. Until the hunting public requires them to produce facts, we will still have to mail in bogus survey cards or throw them in the trash where they belong. Since they make the rules, it is all good and perfect. How about we start a thread on what kind of Department personell we have? 1. Ones that are far enough along not to buck the system? 2. Ones that have a passion for what they do and put up with the bull? 3. The ones we never get that won't put up with the bull? 4. The ones that control it and give us all the bull?

Tony encouraged me to do this so here goes. This is a pic of me and my best friend back in ?, I still can't figure if it is 1971 or 1972. I am the good looking one with the black rim glasses, my friend is the dork in the football "camo" jersey. My dad and I found this bull dead, shot from another hunter that morning. The bull's body was still smoking in the snow. We waited a long time and tryed to find the guy that may have shot it. Dad let me tag it and call it mine. I was the Cock of the walk. I was so proud of this bull that I decided to brag to everyone I killed it. I lied to my friends and family and told them I shot it. Dad never said a word. He let me live with my lies. Funny how when you are 15 you want to be the great white hunter and show everyone how great you are. Dad never lied to anyone about anything so I am sure he never thought I would lie about this and claim I killed it. Here is another interesting fact, I have had 9 Arizona bull elk tags. The first 5 were in unit 1 and 2 of them were throphy rifle bull hunts. The last 4 were archery bull hunts in units 6B, 1, 1, & 27. I have never killed a bull elk in Arizona yet. Moral to the story: DON'T EVER LIE I did catch a 5 pound large mouth one time. The special thing about this photo to me is all the memories of friendship and family that are true. My uncle took this picture and I didn't even know there was one until a few years ago. Thanks to Tony, it almost looks like a picture now. Gee Tony, at least we had color film

Hey Tony, My first elk permit for 1 was back in 67 before there were any elk there and then again in 70, 73 & 76. My brother and I were brought up on 202's until we moved up in the world and got us some 33's.

Tony, I sent you a PM and wondered if you got it. I can't find it in my sent messages. Dave

Tony, I have tryed shooting quail on the ground but they keep changing directions. I have trouble seeing in low light and can't see them in the roost. I only shoot at quail flying with my bow in good light. Good exercise, you can pull the bow 50 times then let down cause you couldn't get the shot off. My contribution to less impact on the resourse. Some day I will collect that throphy

I guess he didn't want to eat your camera.

Ah yes, the Sky Island Alliance having a weekend outing before they make 36b a wilderness. Raul's grandchildren serve Arizona well.

CMC, Have you tried a string from Shooters Edge yet?

This was the moon tonight.

Tony, You killer. That was good. Keith, As a matter of clarification, I was not suggesting or implying that we should shoot illegal’s only using it to illustrate what happens when we adopt, accept or ignore certain things such as the progress the animal rights people have made. Similar to how we use words.

This is where we have to realize where they are coming from. Just as we may recognize a verse somewhere, they have their own religion. We all must recognize that the people that we classify as anti hunters are really a religious group. There is no way to compromise with a group whose ultimate goal is to end all hunting period........... You have to realize they will fight for their religion until the end. This will not work in our world today. but it would work in a real world.....If every illegal alien knew he would be shot, there would be no illegal aliens. If every time an anti group spoke to the Commission, they got one of their previous "wins" taken away, they would shut up. We do not have a Commission that can accomplish this. We have to have a Commission with three people that are on the right track. On a positive note, we are only two away.

I am glad you are here Keith!!!

Keith, I hope you don't mean that you are close to being done with trying to help? Look at ol Bill and Tony. I bet they have heard more spit than we will ever dream of but they are still at it. Making us argue with them all the time. Bless their hearts.

Back to the stuff we have to deal with: I think it is entirely possible that hunters create more grief than the game they KILL has to endure. It is amazing that some of the finest people you ever want to meet “hunters” have such a hard time getting along. Maybe we should define hunters??? Whoooww. Kill is much easier. OBSERVATIONS AND COMPARISONS: 1. Who will get dirty and help you get your vehicle out when it is stuck? Who will steal your trail camera? 2. Who will drag your deer out for you when you are too tired to take another step? Who will tell everyone you are a pussy and shouldn’t be hunting? 3. Who will suck up to you when you give out your spots to them and then take the whole world there and proclaim themselves a guide? Just rambling about how we all help each other. I am not sure it is possible that hunters can have the cohesion or intellect to help their sport. They would rather fight and see who could kick someone’s glass. I am not sure if it is even possible to get these guys to agree on anything?

tinaz, Welcome to Coues Whitetail.com

Being a native of Tucson, I am curious if Mr. Quimby has the correct word to describe the newspaper we have here now that he use to write for back when they had an outdoor page? Our Game $ Fish Department has adopted and uses the word "harvest". I don't have a problem with the word, I just have a problem getting it done. For this reason, I have adopted a term for myself personally that I do not oppose nor am offended by. For me, it is the most articulate, definitive, non-abrasive, positive, PC term out there. "get er done". Maybe the new G$F regulations could include the "get er done" objectives for each unit. Animal rights people believe that animals should inherit the earth and humans should leave the planet. Hunters only assist the animals to their "new life" on their "new earth" where ever that is. Seems like we are doing the animal rights people a favor. I guess we could be called assistants in helping animals reach their goal. Thank you all for your input. This has been a really good thread.

Not sure why you would call him the 42 buck other than he would measure 42 on each side. He is a bigger than the 75 mark you spoke of. Good luck Lance and may you be telling us all the ground measurements with pictures soon.

ROTFLOL Now that is funny! Also the truth!!! The truth is the funniest thing. Thanks Tony, I need some oxygen now.

Archery is the best tool to promote what we now know called recruitment. Archery is the best tool to retain those hunters. Archery has the least impact on the resource. We only have one Commissioner that understands this. It will take 20 years to reverse the travesty that has happened these last two years.