dogman68

I have had dogs snake bit and have never taken them to a vet and they were fine. But I am not saying that is what you should do, only my experience. An old time dog man told me that he would just exercise the snake bit dog and that would distribute the venom throughout the dog instead of a local area and he never lost a dog or had any problems. Sounded like it was common where he lived. Bit on the head causes a lot of swelling and they look sad, but in my experience, has never been fatal.

Just spent 4 wonderful days on the north kaibab. I can remember, growing up as a kid, when unit 7 near Flagstaff had better and more deer than the Kaibab does now. Pretty sad. Hopefully some day someone will wake up and it will return to what it is capable of being for the hunters that will come after.

It's not that straight forward. Here's an example used at a Hunter Ed class I was at. You have a jar, it will hold 100 marbles and no more. Right now that jar is filled with 50 red and 50 blue. You can't get anymore red in, no matter what. But if you remove 10 blue ones you can add 10 red ones. Still 100 marbles but now 60 red ones and 40 blue ones. It's a simple explanation of carrying capacity but it helps to visualize it. If you are over the carrying capacity on the winter range, then removing some does will allow for more bucks. That's logical if not for the fact that nobody is dropping 10 marbles into the buck pool. You are removing 30 blue marbles and 30 red marbles. Now you are short 40 marbles.

Well maybe that is good cause for another "study". We can study the "problem" for another 30 years until the deer are gone, then we can study why they are gone. The 3-bar study (recent one) showed that the range can support 45-90 deer per square mile without any adverse impact on the food supply; instead of the 4-7 deer per square mile currently on the outside of the fence. Least that is what I am told by people who participated in the study. We continue to wage Jiihad on mule deer.

Warrior could probably hang with Hap when he was young. I'd say Hap is a lot more people friendly. He has only bitten 3 little kids and 2 adults so far this week. Hap has some really dirty habits though.

It has to be the GSP running through his veins!!!! He is a Celebrity on the World Wide Web now! Wouldn't be surprised to see Ole Hap on the Ed Sullivan show. He is a really fun dog.

Hap does a good job when things are right for him. The others all do their part and make it possible for him to do what we call, "his Michael Jordan thing"

Costs $100. About a hundred question test that the Az. Game and Fish can administer if you ask the NM people to send them the test. Also a cop can give you the test I believe. Maybe even a bunny sheriff. I think it just has to be some sort of "official" person giving the test to make sure the tester doesn't use a book or anything. It's pretty simple test.

The part Andy left out-----he walked that 8" ledge for 30' with 200' of air below him to rescue ole Hap. We had 7 hounds hung up on that bluff and Andy was able to tie every one of them in a safe place. There was no reason to kill the lion. Anyway if we had shot him, he would have fallen to the bottom of Marble Canyon and we wouldn't have been able to retrieve him. Hard to find hunting buddies as dedicated and ethical as Andy Knowlton. He doesn't care about killing stuff just to say, "look at me". It's all about the dogs and the chase. Pretty rare these days when you see what some hunters pull.

The part of the story Andy left out------he walked this 8" ledge for 30' with 200+ feet of air below him to rescue the dog. He risked his neck to save old Hap. Hunting buddies like that are hard to come by. Then yesterday he takes Hap and Mike and some other hounds down to Tucson and catches a big mean tom.

Tell them I am sorry about almost running over them in the road. We had a dog out and were trying to get to him before dark. We only saw two tracks the whole trip but the Kaibab is the only place you can go and see 10 mule deer in a day so it was nice! ha ha The bugs were terrible though. Was your brother in law in a new white dodge with real nice aluminum dog boxes, plus a guy following in a toyota tacoma?

They were standing in the road near the east side game trail. Between there and the HQ. Way up Rock Canyon we saw some fresh tracks while running our dogs.

Tony, You called a while back and when my power went out, your number was deleted. I have tried unsuccessfully to e mail you. If you would like to get a hold of me, please call back. Thanks Randy Wasn't sure where to post this to get a hold of you.

Well said my friend. There are many studies that are out on lion predation etc. They all basically say the same thing. When applied "locally" they are ineffective. It really makes little difference if you remove 4 lions a year from the Strip, Kaibab or anywhere else if you cannot prevent recruitment.

I think if there were 50 lions on the Kaibab, there wouldn't be any need to put out 1000 buck tags on the early hunt (2 years ago) or 2000 doe tags. I agree, let's not do the California thing. "Can any good thing come out of California" ha ha So I am wondering, by hiring a lion hunter to hunt lions on the strip, are the deer coming back in any noticeable numbers? It has never worked any where else but I am really curious how it is going up there.

Tim, I am not qualified to answer that, not being a biologist. I guess it depends on the definition of what is "too many". To some, 1 is too many. To some, 50 is too few. I just think that all wildlife has it's place in nature and this micromanagement that we do is unfair to ALL wildlife. Every single study that has been done by the biology people concludes that lions do not have a negative impact on healthy game populations. Of course in the case of mule deer, most would recognize that deer populations are very low. So of course lions are going to have more of an impact on those populations--------just like 15 power bino's, guns that can shoot 800 yds. 4 buddies helping you glass for deer since you have a tag, etc etc. I seldom hunt the Kaibab due to the tremendous snow hunting pressure it gets. My opinion would be that lions are there in viable numbers, in part, due to the close proximity to the park. I remember back in the mid 80's they estimated there were 50 lions on the Kaibab. That was according to an article in the Arizona Republic. And back in the mid 80's you will recall, the deer herds were in a lot better shape than they are now, although some say they are gradually coming back. I doubt if there are any where near that number of lions on the Kaibab now, but again, I really wouldn't know and I don't think any one else does either. Lion removal is very efficient in areas with snow cover as most lion hunting today is done with numerous vehicles combing the country, all connected by two way radio. Any lion that moves is more than likely a dead lion. The studies I read pretty much say that the one deer a week thing is just heresay, more like 12-15 large mammals a year. The ADA I believe has in the past hired a very good lion hunter to remove lions on the arizona strip. I recently read that the total removal has been a total of 23 over the last 5 years, which is probably consistent with lion densities in most places. Is that too many? Too few? I don't know. I know Allen is involved or in the know on deer stuff, it would be interesting to hear his take.????? Again, my personal belief is that wildlife should be "managed" as a whole, not a fire brigade method that runs here and there trying to put out the flames brought on by political pressure. Some of the big foundations appear to really hate lions and want them all killed To me, after 40 years of hunting nearly full time, I have nothing but respect for them. Also, in case there is misunderstanding on where I stand (not that it matters) I am totally pro Arizona Game and Fish but I also believe that "honesty is always the best policy". What do you think? What is your opinion? I think possibly part of the problem could be, most people in wild life management now weren't even alive when there were good numbers of deer, so who is to say what is healthy and what isn't. It's all a mystery to me. Personally, If I were a biologist, and I had not been able to "fix" something wrong in my cow herd in 30 years, I would try something different. JMO Hopefully the working together of the ADA et al and game and fish will produce some visible results. I would say your highest lion populations are in areas where hunting is more challenging. That is, areas that receive little snow fall or are roadless. Most would agree that the Kaibab is a road hunter's dream come true. Sorry for this long oration.

Allen, my comment was not directed towards you in any way. It was directed towards game and fish, meaning that just because a college degree is a prerequisite for employment doesn't mean they know everything. So, this is a public apology to what you thought was a public snub-------which in no way was. I think it is very important to stand up to game and fish because it is beneficial to wildlife, hunters and also the department. In the past, G&F has claimed that what we were talking about is what they have always been doing and why is it necessary to even make sure they are doing what they claim. Anyway, my apology.

Everybody's dog has an off day now and then. The deer runner didn't belong to Randy. It was his nephew's dog that he was trying to help him out with. Mine have sure had some off days from time to time, that's for sure.

Man alive, what a dog. Reminds me of my grandson. Must be genetics

Allen, I thought that was what they were doing all along--------according to them. Why does the ADA have to "help" them. "You can always tell a college boy; you just can't tell him much"

Doug, you are so right. Growing up in unit 9, there were so many big bucks, especially out west, and there were no elk in the area. none at all. now, when you go out there you cant find hardly a deer track because it looks like an elk barnyard. That is exactly what the AZGFD has wanted all along though. They keep the north rim for deer and the south for elk, which is all about $$ I think, sellling high dollar elk tags. Which flies in the face of everything they say they believe in, which is that they want to restore things back to the way they were before people interfered. they spend tons of money trying to restore rivers and streams and keep these little spiked ace fish while at the same time saying elk and deer dont compete for resources in unit 9. Falls under their main department commitment to hunters: "Say one thing and do the opposite." Twoguns They have had about 30 years to do something about the deer. We've heard the drought story, the too many does story and god knows the too many lions story or excuse. Anybody that thinks the Kaibab is over browsed has never been there apparently. I think there are a good number of deer, I'm just saying it has been greatly mismanaged. JMO They finally found something (elk) that was hard to screw up in spite of themselves. Whatever happened to wildlife as a whole? We had a good spring and are seeing more fawns so now we can up the permits and give greater hunter opportunity. I fail to see what mule deer have done to deserve the management they get.

Doug, you are so right. Growing up in unit 9, there were so many big bucks, especially out west, and there were no elk in the area. none at all. now, when you go out there you cant find hardly a deer track because it looks like an elk barnyard. That is exactly what the AZGFD has wanted all along though. They keep the north rim for deer and the south for elk, which is all about $$ I think, sellling high dollar elk tags. Which flies in the face of everything they say they believe in, which is that they want to restore things back to the way they were before people interfered. they spend tons of money trying to restore rivers and streams and keep these little spiked ace fish while at the same time saying elk and deer dont compete for resources in unit 9. Falls under their main department commitment to hunters: "Say one thing and do the opposite." Twoguns

That's all that's on my mind also after three years of elk tags. I consider the Kaibab a fantastic consulation prize to all of us who don't draw an interfering hunt early in the year. Even though I remember seeing very few bucks in 03', there's no other place I would rather be that time of year... I totally agree. The Kaibab is some of the most awesome country on earth! I just think it is sad the way it has been "managed" to death when it could be so awesome. So much good habitat deer it is unbelievable. It is a road hunter's dream.

Well tell the boys that they can hunt with Red Ruby, Debi, Reno, and Little Blue. Andy has some good hounds coming so we will have plenty to hunt with! Hap will be sitting in his rocking chair by then, but maybe we will have a little hap Jr. to hunt. Glad you can get out of the hole.