Rembrant

Good point Muskrat, if those numbers are correct. I can tell you that I know several people, myself included that started putting in for sheep when we didn't have to pay up front. I am assuming this behavior goes beyond me and my friends. Would be a good thing to check those numbers. Also, when we started using credit cards, the Dept began losing the ability to gain interest on the moneys held. We were told at the Flagstaff meeting that this loss was ballanced by the Dept not having to pay for inputters as we were doing the work as we applied on-line. Ideally, we could apply on-line (to do the inputting) and be required to send in payment, thereby helping the Dept with the inputting job and allowing them to gain the interest as well. I'd bet that if we all had to pay up front, the total applications would drop some. I know that the crowd I run with will have to plan ahead to be able to apply for everything we want. That is the point. The folks that are serious will get 'er done, and the people that are not, won't. This will have no adverse effect on the wildlife management (I think is the way you stated it earlier), but it should help to separate the serious hunters from the not-so-serious crowd. The problem is that there are too many applicants for the tags available. Instead of holding everyones hand and helping the masses through the process, we should be offering a few hoops to jump through. Mike

Thanks Lark, That's all I was looking for. I think you are right. I appreciate that the Dept is asking for input, yet a handfull of men on the top will ultimately choose. No matter what they decide on, someone will be ticked off. At the Flagstaff meeting, much talk was about the hunter safety course being a requirement and it isn't included on the list of options. I realize there are logistical obstacles with this. If it was required in '05, the Dept would go bankrupt because there are too many people that haven't taken the course. That's why I think it should be required, in say, 5 years. How can Arizona NOT require people to pass a hunter safety course?? This is just common sense. And this requirement alone would eliminate a lot of non-serious applicants from the draw. We're not making the decisions, but we need to be hollering. Mike

Thanks for the opinion Lark. What are YOU doing about it? Mike

I am assuming that the lack of response with this string is because we are all busy logging on to the G&F web site and expressing our opinions. Right? When the Taulman/Montoya/10% non-resident fiasco was made evident ? during the annual big game draw, this site was flaming with opinions and responses, mostly against our Game Dept and their policies. We wouldn?t be sitting back and relaxing now that we have our tags in hand and just letting the Dept do what they will without our input, would we? Times have changed folks. If we just sit on our hands and don?t give the Dept. our ideas and opinions by attending meetings and/or writing in, then we don?t deserve the right to continue hunting; a right that we have for so long taken for granted and a right that many people would like to take away from us. If you don?t take part of the process, DON?T COMPLAIN! Mike

Thanks Amanda, The Dept ideas have changed a bit due to the input (suggestions) from the meetings. The way I see it there are 2 problems: #1 Too many people in this state that think they want to hunt. #2 The Nonresident 10% cap problem. The end result is that it is really difficult to get a tag these days. The #1 problem is the biggest problem because it was already too hard to get a tag even before the USO fiasco. Both problems are probably something we will have to live with from now on. I believe the Dept will get creative with the Nonresident problem like solution # 20, "de-commercialize all tags" making body parts of wild game unsaleable. Or separating the Non res's from the general draw (#16). But we will still have too many resident applicants! I think we should make the draw more difficult (not nessesarily more expensive), so that the serious hunters that really want to hunt will have their act together and get drawn. Require payment up front. Require liscense in hand before applying. Do away with internet apps. Shorten the application time period. AND REQUIRE EVERY ONE TO PASS THE HUNTER SAFETY COURSE FIRST! This will be kind of a drunk test for getting drawn - if you can't handle these things, you don't get drawn! The Dept is proposing all these things except for the hunter safety course. I think this is do-able if we do it over a five year period. This would allow the Dept. 5 years to provide these classes and the hunters 5 years to get in class. This way we have a long and fair period to get educated and the dept won't lose money during the draw while everyone completes the course. A couple of the bonus point ideas are OK, but don't really address the problem. The root of the problem is too many applicants! My 2 cents. Mike

Sounds very good! But dangerous! Got a tip for you bear hunters: Get out over a prickly pear slope real early in the morning before daylight. As the first light begins to offer a little vision, instead of glassing, just listen very intently. You can actually hear the bears feeding on the cactus fruit. The sounds you will hear are: OUCH! OOOOCH! OWIEE! OUCH! AIAHH! OUCH! OOOWIEEE!!!!! Mike

bcoover, Man you're smart! You saw right through all the rhetoric. I don't know beans about deer hunting. I just sit at home with my computer and make stuff up. If I was a real deer hunter I'd be in the field and not sitting here. But I refuse to relinqish my status as advanced member! All that's required to be an advanced member is to write in alot. Easy for a bigmouth like me! Peace, Mike

I have been told I have unrealistic expectations. When expectations meet reality you get dissapointment. I am really dissapointed in all of you guys! How could you! How could you all just give away all those hunting secrets??!! This is probably why there are no more deer of any kind in unit 23. I'm so ticked off, I'll quit this post (or maybe keep reading and then write something mean under another handle, like, maybe, Buster). Forget the cover idea. I ain't drawing a picture of Ernesto naked!!!!!!! Mike

Manamal, It's a water thing. The southeastern part of the state gets more rain. The more north and the more west you go the dryer it gets. Unit 20 has fewer wt deer than unit 21, which has fewer wt deer than 22 and 23. The most whitetails are north and south of Tuscon where the monsoons begin sooner and stay later than everywhere else. Mike

It is way wrong to Wally in on other people's stuff. I agree. That's called coveting. My point is that if you put enough clues out there, somebody will. It's also wrong to steal cars, but if you you leave your car sitting around with the keys in it. Guess what will happen? Griz and his buddy don't seemed concerned about it, it's their business, and I'm glad they shared the pics. If those guys find themselves sharing that unlikely hot spot with a bunch of other hunters, ultimately who's fault will that be? Mike

Griz, I'm glad you don't feel threatened by all the guess work. Apparently we're not even close. Good. I'd hate to see somebody share a nice pic of a big buck and then big mouth their way into a bunch of competition. Apparrently you know what you are doing. I am still really suspicious of all this cyber sharing, and can't help but feel we sometimes shoot ourselves in the foot. I hope you buddy kills that toad with his bow, and good luck bear hunting!!!!!! Mike

Let's see now... Mesquite trees, 2 miles from major highway, off good dirt road, marginal elk habitat, double wide trailer within 1/4 mi., Recurve man said , "Nice trick tank." I also think that looks like a trick tank fence, So we are looking for a trick tank with a dirt burm, Recurveman is putting all that together and figuring unit 22, 111 says that he knows that Griz has a 22 elk tag, Redman, you may not need GPS coordinates, maybe you can research trick tank sites in unit 22 and go find the one that matches all the clues AND the photos. Wouldn't take much work if it is unit 22, and the payoff will be giant. And what about the two other bucks? Think this toad is running with a couple of forkies? Probably not. Griz, does your co-worker log on to this site? Mike

There are no deer of any kind in that unit. You must hunt somewhere else. Mike

I like what Truefletch is saying about official complaints when these public servants cross the line. This is accountability. Other than that, the job that these peace officers do to uphold our laws are infinately more important than our personal feelings. Mike

Bullwigeon, I am sensing that your "Glassing is over rated - walk your butt off" is kin to "There are no deer of any kind in unit 23. You must hunt somewhere else." I think we are bonding. Mike

asbever8, You have a quality deer tag. You probably know that already - that's why you applied there. Scouting is the very best way to find out what you need to know. While the hunt is in progress is not the best time to find roads that don't like your truck, or to find out where the deer aren't. Don't it stink to reach the end of a hunt, and then realize what you'd do next year if you get the tag again? The odds of getting a 23 coues tag are a lot like the odds of getting a rifle bull tag. Don't count on next year - it's a long shot. Get out there just as much as you can get away with and get 'er figured out. Find multiple glassing spots before the hunt. Line out lots of options, and in the course of doing so you will be getting a good feel of the area and the animal you are hunting. Lots of folks hunt the southern half (big desert), but the north half has a lot of great hard to get to places. Both halves have wilderness areas. Ultimately it is you and the work you put into it that will determine the success of your hunt. I hope you have a fabulous hunt and kill the deer of your dreams. Gett-y-up! Mike

I like what AZKendog and Ernesto say about being seen by their own party. I hunt carp with a guy in New Mexico that makes me carry an orange vest and a signal mirror for the express reason of being seen by each other while signaling and scamming on deer. I never even thought of it before, but man is it a great thing to do. Last year while we were working different tree islands in the same area, I heard my buddy shoot about 3/4 of a mile away. I broke out of my tree island, looking across a giant sage flat and was immediately hit in the face with the sun being reflected off the mirror of the shooter. No guessing; I knew exactly where to go - without the use of a radio. Oh yeah. safety is a good reason to wear orange too. Mike

Allen, Thanks for the advertisement! What you wrote here was better than what we had scripted. I promise I'll pay you that $20. that we talked about. But seriously, you are welcome and I'm glad you like it. Amanda wants to do another one later this year. Mike

AZ4life, I was thinking about the major burn on top of Four Peaks. That ought to be chest high in aspens (Ice cream for deer). Don't know 'cause I've never been up there. I don't have a 22 tag - just encouraging the guys that do. I get to hunt across the basin in 23. Hee Haw!! Mike

I hate to say it, but sometimes dealing with the Forest Service is like going to Disneyland on LSD. This legality will be a fun one to explore. Mike

That burn is one of the best things that could have happened to the whitetail habitat in that area. It'll take a while (a few years) to come to fruition, but it could be really interesting this year as well. As mentioned earlier in this string, the deer that were in the area that got nuked will be stacked up in adjacent areas. The fringes should be good to hunt. Look for water and north facing cover in close proximity to the burn. Deer will be licking minerals right off the burnt forest floor. Ever walk through some of that country? Not with any ease. There was too much mature scrub oak, mahogany, manzanita and cliff rose, not to mention the mature canopy of juniper and pine. Nature just took her vacume cleaner through there and cleaned house. That'll make for some great glassing. And a lot of fire-ignorant folks won't even go there to hunt because burnt breaks their hearts. Speaking of burnt, isn't there at least one other major burn in 22 that would be beautifully regrown right about now? A 22 tag in hand = major blessing. Mike

Just go to the archery shop in Payson and look at the pictures on the wall. You'll get an education. Mike

Welcome to the forum "coues". I like the way you think. Mike

I got the budget CVA last year and went the same route with the powerbelts. Started with the lightest .45 cal bullet and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Ended up shooting the Powerbelt 295 with 110 gr of powder and am 4" low at 200 yds.(forget where zero is - gotta start shootin again) I went from wondering what good a muzzleloader is - to complete confidence. Figurin this stuff out is a lot of the fun.

Nope, But I know there used to be some in 5B north. Don't know if there are still any out there or not. Pigs and burros to terrible things to habitat. Mike