Rembrant

I have the same feeling, Josh. But I just found out that I can't go for the 3 days like I had planned - I may not get to go at all this weekend. So I 'm gonna have to come up with an alternative. It's work that's getting in the way, so maybe I can burn a couple of personal days next week. I WILL GO! Glad to hear you're still in the deer. I been reading alot about the eastern wt stuff. Maybe that's good, maybe not. One book is totally about moon phase. This guy is saying that although there are a lot of variables, the does will come into estrus when the amount of daylight is right (minimal) and this is accentuated by the new moon (even less light). This is a different month for different regions. Let's pretent that for us in AZ, it is January. We are coming off a full moon now and headed for the new moon in a week and a half or two weeks (I don't have a calender in front of me). This would explain why we are seeing a lot of 'rut' activity in the form of bucks running around chasing does. The bucks are excited but the does aren't ready yet. We would consider this peaking, yet there is actually no breeding yet. When the does finally come around, the activity will seem to stop for a few days (while they breed) and then it will get crazy again while a bunch of horny bucks search far and wide for another receptive doe. Sounds good in theory. Or maybe I'm just doing some wishful thinking - 'cause I can't go tomorrow??!!!! Anyway, I'm glad you're gettin out there. I think it's prime time for those really big bucks to start letting their guard down. You know how the BIG bull elk let the smaller bulls burn the energy and gather the harem, and then when the time is right they show up to kick some butt and breed the cows? I'm thinkin that between now and the new moon, the giant whitetail bucks will be moving around at times and in places that they would'nt be caught dead in for about 50 weeks of the year. It will be interesting to see how all this pans out in the next few weeks. Happy hunting! Mike

Ernesto, Josh, I shoot an old but good Browning Mirage. I'm still dangerous out to 50, but prefer 40yds and under. That's good thinking Ernesto - considering possible shots beyond the lick. I've been reading a bunch of books on the Eastern whitetail tactics and 20yds is pretty standard, Like I said earlier, I'm not gonna change anything now. I'm gonna take my chances with what I got. Hopefully I'll get another opportunity. I just get so darn excited! I might have killed that pretty buck if I had been more patient and made sure of where the doe was. They were coming right to the lick! But NOOOOOOOO, I had to bring my bow verticle so's not to miss the first opportunity for a shot at the buck. I was SET UP by that first broken horned buck - he just walked right on through - stepped over the lick and left tracks on the scrape and left without even slowing down. A guy would have to be pretty aggressive to get a shot in a situation like that. Like Galuero Man said, "every situation is different." The 90 incher grunted alot, maybe 15 times altogether, and I could also barely hear him. The first few times that I heard him I had to wonder, "Did I just hear him grunt?" I am only 13 feet up in this tree and a deer ain't smelt me yet. I have had the wind blowing directly at the deer many times with no ill effects. I'm feeling so confident with this that I even fart when I want to. Also I read once that rubber boots are the best for walking in and out of a tree stand because they are scentless. This is what I have been wearing and sometimes the deer come in to the stand right on top of my tracks. I hate wearing them things 'cause my socks get sucked down to my toes, but this seems to be paying off. Nope, I ain't going anywhere else Josh. I'm gonna play this thing out. I tried hard to develope other set-ups earlier this fall but nothing else panned out. I just hope I don't start getting more deerless days like before. I'm braindead enough to sit in a tree for days, but my butt complains alot. Mike

Thanks for the comments guys. Anybody else? I am leaning towards pulling on them in the open like Ernesto suggests. I appreciate your testimony too Galiuro Man, it's a gamble for sure, but it might pay off. I can't stand the thought of pulling my bow while the buck is behind cover only to have him stop and leave me stranded doing the wobble thing. I thought someone would tell me my stand is too close to the lick. And I think it is. 20 yds is TIGHT! I am not going to change it till after this hunt. I have a plan for another tree that is about 35 yds distance, but it will take considerable modification and I don't want to disturb the area now. In Josh's story above he got his draw at 35-40 yds and then stopped the deer with a whistle. I don't think I can get my draw undetected at 20yds, but I think it will be better while the deer is in the open. Hopefully he will stand there and try to figure me out while I zero in. If he's getting spooky but not yet bolting, I plan to make a squirrel noise with my tongue behind my front teeth. This may confuse him further and buy me another second or two. I stopped the broken horned forkey at 45 yds with this noise. He stood there forever (maybe 2 minutes). Two weeks ago I called an Abert squirrel up my alligator with this noise and he didn't freak until he saw the whites of my eyes at about 5 feet. These deer are SNEAKY! The only deer that I have heard approach was the big rutty buck. Even when the ground was dry, I don't know a deer is approaching until I see them. Twice I didn't know three deer were on the lick until I turned my head and wowie!! I am using the coues deer grunt call from www.ModernCall Products.com. After hearing that buck do all the grunting, I was able to match the tone. The Couse deer IS a higher pitch than what most of the products out there have. I am also using the Primos Can bleat call. Twice I had does come in within ten minutes after using the can. I am gaining some confidence with these calls. I have been experimenting with these calls as the deer are leaving the area yet still in sight. I have not turned one around yet, but there seems to be no harm done. Weather watching a buck or doe or using the grunt or bleat the most common reaction is: the deer stops walking and looks back for a few moments and then continues on his/her way. The doe and fawn that stayed for two hours, stayed in spite of my experimenting with them (they even bedded down). The 90" buck in the above story, I think, was actually influenced by the grunts and bleat though it was not immediate. This is a barrel full of fun. I can't go again until NEXT Sat, Sun, Mon. (I worked it out with my loving, considerate, beautiful, understanding, awesome, irreplacable wife). Hopefully the rut will still be kickin in. Mike

I've been sittin in the same tree over the same scrape that this string started with. Saw nothin the first two days. A week later, in two days I saw a doe and fawn. They camped out at 30 yds for two hours. Thusday, Jan 1st, I finally made it back out. Jumped two deer on the way in (one was a doe - no ID on other). Between 9 & 11 six does (in two groups) came in to lick the salt that I had previously placed by the big scrape. Two more single does did a walk by. This morning, Jan 2nd, a fork horn with about a 12" spread walked across the salt and right through the scrape and as close as 17 yds. I took a couple of pics. Didn't want to shoot him. Too early in the year to tag out on a rag rack (his G-2's were both broke off). But man that was cool! And about time! This is my sixth day here! Less than an hour later the continual scraping noise that I wrote off as an Abert squirrel turned into a deer 40 yds away! Had him figured for a buck 'cause of the scraping and the size of his neck. He stepped out of the oak and revealed a solid 90" rack. A little crabby in front, but with 6" G-2's. A really nice, tall, symetrical rack. He has one doe with him and is behind the alligator I'm sitting in. He walks around scraping the ground and breaking limbs off of overhanging branches, then he starts going away uphill! So I grunt. He keeps going. So I bleat. He keeps going. At 60 yds he beds down. His doe is about 30 yds from him. 4 minutes later he gets up and starts toward his doe and then downhill with her following him. This is good. He is going to pass by me at 20 yds to my right. I'm set up to shoot to my left. That's OK. If he continues I'll get a shot straight in front of me at about 25 yds. He does not continue. He stops and then attempts to attack his doe at full speed. She is just as fast as he is and they sprint back up the hill 40 yds.! They stand 15 yds apart, and back behind my right shoulder again. I read his mind: He says, "Guess your not ready yet." She says, "Got that right, handsome! But I kinda like this." Then she squats to pee while she's lookin at him batting her eyes. He scrapes the ground and says, "grunt, grunt.......grunt, grunt (YESS! I got to hear a Coues buck grunt!). She stands there and lets him walk by. They both move over behind my left shoulder at 40 yds. I lose sight of her, but I pick him up coming DOWNHILL TO MY LEFT!! He stops and stomps the ground. At first I thought he was on to me, but he was looking further down hill. I believe that he was trying to shake loose the deer he heard earlier (that would have been ME grunting and bleating). He moves behind some small pines and oak at 20 yds. He stops at the edge of the cover. Beyond that is 15 feet of clean air to the lick. My total consentration is on this buck. On his last few steps to the edge of the cover, I brought my bow verticle. He stopped and I stopped. Not knowing how long this will be, I firm my grip on bow and string to stabelize my stance. As I put pressure on my string, the cable moved slightly on the cable guard making an ever so slight "dink". Now I know where the doe is, in my periphial vision, I see her beginning to move back uphill. She was right under my tree not 5 feet away!! She was probably watching me bring my bow verticle, wondering, "What th..."!? The buck goes back uphill through the cover and they both exit - stage left. A half hour later another buck comes out of where the two had exited. This was yet another 3 point, not counting eye guards (80 class). He does a walk by across the hill above and behind me at about 55 yds. Had to come home today to take care of human things. I will get back out when I can. This encounter was really special. How COOL to field judge a Coues buck for 15 minutes without the aid of optics! This was very much like close encounters with big bull elk in the rut with a bow. Maybe even more special because of the rarity of this happening - at least to me! I am concerned about getting my draw in close proximity to the deer. All of my hunting experience tells me to draw while the animal is still behind cover, but after watching these Coues deer up close and personal, they generally STOP EVERYTHING at the slightest noise or movement until they figure it out or until they get comfortable again. That could be two minutes or longer! The question: Does a person draw the bow while the buck is still behind cover and hope he continues walking? -OR- Does a person draw the bow while the buck is in the clear and hope that he stays? Experienced answers please. Josh? Standman? anybody? Thanks, Mike

Congratulations Mike Udall on killing that buck!!!!! I finally had a doe and fawn come into my tree stand over a good scrape. They stayed there within 35 yds for 2 hours! At one point the fawn was under my tree within 15 feet looking at me. The doe was alerted twice from my movement and stomped her feet to try and make me move. It was good to have them there as a buck attractant - but none showed. Got a few pics. Helped me to realize that when glassing for deer and having a hard time finding them - they are probably loligagging under someone's tree blind! Congrats again, Mike. That is an awesome feat! Mike

Amanda, You are one special lady! But, you know what? Get a tent!! I don't know what you are using for a pad, but before I started carrying a 3" foam pad, I used one of those little, thin backpacker pads, and after a few miserable cold nights I would then pull up all of the grass and other soft plants in camp and place them under my whimpy pad and bag for added insulation. One time I had the foresight to take a small tarp - because of a forecasted storm - rolled by bag up in it like a burrito, and woke up to 5" of wet snow. And I was camped low in unit 21 down in the sagauros! Once while in my mid 20's, I was working in a grocery store in Flagstaff when I saw Otis Baker (Otis is Flagtown's granddaddy hunter, who has the respect of all). I was complaining to him that I had a 6B Spring Turkey tag and that the deep snow throughout the unit was gonna keep me from getting into just about anywhere. Otis was in his early 70's at the time and still an active hound dog man. He looked me up and down and then he said, "A young fella like you ought to be able to hike in to anyplace in any unit you could ever want to go." OUCH! But I realized he was absolutely right. And I did. And I still do. and I still will just as long as I am able. It's OK with me that the masses hunt little walks from their trucks and quads. They just don't know how fantastic it all can be. Leaves more country for crazy people like us. Thanks for the pics. They speak volumes about your character, drive and passion - and makes me want to get out again ASAP! Mike

Az4life, You were talking about 'those people', and that is also who I was referring to: the people with the gripe. I appologize for not making that more clear in my post. My words were not aimed at you. And after reading your conscientious reply I am even more convinced that you are one of the good guys. Also, thanks for sticking up for Dana. I think I may have met him once - I am not sure. I don't have a personal connection with him, yet I believe all those guys need our support. It really buggs me (I guess y'all could tell) when people start slammin' our Game Dept. Congratulations on your hunt! My brother and I could have double killed once, then we decided to just take the bigger of the two bedded bucks (94"). Afterward, looking back, we were thinking it would have been a pretty darn neat experience to have taken both of those bucks. The other was in the mid 80's. Thanks, Mike

Sounds like Dana is on some peoples list for sure. The comment about "not taking normal route around the unit 'cause of a little extra snow" is rediculous. What is a normal route for a wildlife manager? Cops don't do 'regular' routes. This only shows that some folks got rubbed the wrong way and now they are looking for anything else to gripe about - even if they gotta make it up. People normally gripe about the 'in general' information that the G&F gives. Maybe Dana did goof up by steering some people into some deer. The gripers should be a little better versed in their knowledge of their favorite area and quit blaming other people for their own lack of deer hunting ability. No, its not my job to defend a game warden, but I don't like the sound of the hostility aimed at our Game Dept. We have enough challenges out there without self distructing. And besides, how would you like to be a lone cop out in the woods where everyone you deal with has a gun and your nearest backup could be over an hour away? - And now everyone has decided to hate you. Ease up on Dana, He's on our side. Mike

Ernesto, I am sure that this is Mr. Coues. The snow made the story clear. I considered for a moment that it could have been a carp track, the track was wide enough but not long enough. Besides, this spot is way up in the steeps, and carp live in lakes and streams. I have 2 concerns: #1, What you said about him gallavanting off chasing does somewhere else. And #2, I am wondering if the snow will push him off of the mountain. Time is a factor since I have to work for a living, but I will do the best I can. Thanks for your input/encouragement, Mike

Yeah, what He said!!!!!!

Robert, Thanks for all of the information. This is cool stuff. I've done all my scouting, picked the best spot, hung the blind, bought the calls. Now I gotta put in the time. I will be listening anxiously. I wish everyone that is going afield next week the very best. Mike

Tommy, Just yesterday I ordered the Primos can before reading your last entry. I like it when things like that happen. I also ordered some doe in heat scent. I think Amanda is correct in thinking that this scent should work. The Coues deer is a sub-species, not a different species (I have never understood any difference between sub-species and race). It seems a bit strange to pay such a high dollar for deer pee! Cost way more than gasoline! But not as much as Channel #5 - which by the way, luers me every time. I'm with y'all on the easy callin. Over calling makes you identifyable. Under calling keeps them guessing - at least with my experience with turkeys and elk. Kinda exciting aint it, this prospect of calling deer? Mike

Thanks Tommy, Amanda, Bret, and Chris, I figured somebody out there's gotta know something - just ain't tellin'. Thanks for tellin'. Tommy, your info sounds exciting. I've got antlers, and a good grunt call. Do you mind telling the whole world what you use to bleat with? ( or e-mail me? ). Looks like I'm gonna be able to carve out some time in Dec/Jan to go learn. This is good stuff. Mike

I believe you are correct Bret. There used to be a blurb about baiting in the regs that could have been interpreted as making even salt illegal - though salt has never been illegal. That blurb has been removed. From what I have been able to gather from other people that have tried to throw out bait for deer; Arizona deer don't bait well. They seem to be quit indifferent. Then there is the question of ethics; many people in this state would consider baiting deer cheating - even if it is legal. Would be a bit embarrasing, wouldn't it, to have your taxidermist telling you and everyone else that your Pope and Young Coues deer had corn falling out of its throat when he caped it? I also think that if baiting became popular, our conservative Game Dept would quickly make it illegal. Sounds like I've given this some thought? I have, and the bottom line is it would be a shame to have the wild and wonderful state of Arizona become another Texas. Mike

One fine late December day I was hunting 24A's Mescal mountains and glassing several small "family groups" of 2 to 3 whitetails in each group. I had wondered for a long time through previous hunts why the Coues deer is ususlly seen in these small groups and very seldom in larger groups. While I was glassing, two of these small groups came together and the deer began running amok, chasing each other around with no apparent danger present. I found this curious and continued glassing and eventually saw two mature does do the stand up fistfight thing. After that happened, this larger group of deer split in two and wandered off in different directions. It seems to me that these small groups are very close knit - immediate - family groups, and have very little tollerance for outsiders.

bacajwb, Let's find out. People ask about decoys. No answers. People ask about scents. Only speculation. Now a question about calls. I hope somebody knows, but I bet the knowledge won't be overwhelming. Fact is, we Westerner's have our own way of hunting our Western whitetails, and it don't include any of the above mentioned Eastern tactics. I have a sneaking suspicion that if bowhunters in particular, start experimenting with these things, that we will start pulling some absolute TOADS out of the higher and thicker (and lower and thicker) country - the country that is too difficult to glass. There's the challenge. Let's get after it and educate ourselves. Mike

I haven't wasted a tag yet. In fact, when I was young and stupider than I am now, I fell out of a tree over a bear bait, slammed 7 vertibre, and STILL went and banged an antelope against the doctors orders and the wishes of my family. Sounds like I'm braggin don't it? - I am! But you know what? I'm starting to be sorry that I started this "don't waste your tag" thing. Chris is right, we don't want to start bickering like some people do in other forums. This forum is better than that. There is not as much action here, but the information is a hundred times better. The point was made. Lets talk about deer huntin. Thanks, Mike

Ernesto, You are a colorful individual. I hope I meet you some day. Mike

Thanks for the explanation and your time CHD. Thank you also for supporting our Game Dept, and especially this web site (I haven't done that). I suppose in your hunt plan for the year, a Nov. whitetail tag is low on your list. I understand. In my hunt plan for the year, this 32 Nov. tag would make me feel like a little kid at Christmas - and so the frustration. Compared to the many other ways that God has blessed my life, a deer tag shouldn't be so high on my list either. I appologize for the whining. Mike

Hey Chris, If you think you might not be in the mood next year to drive to 32 and fight the crowds, please consider not applying for it. I do appreciate your out of state funds helping Arizona's game management, yet it is still bugging me that a number of us guys who hold this hunt in high esteem can no longer draw it on a back up choice. Here I blame sheer numbers of people applying and animal activists trying to throw a wrench in the works - and a seasoned hunter like yourself admits to considering this tag a yawner? OUCH, Chris, that hurts! Mike

Josh, Every time I walk into the archery shop in Payson I have a whitetail coniption. All I want to do after a visit there is to forever walk the hills in search of sign and antlers and trails and rubs and scrapes so I can identify good bowhunting possibilities. This makes me want to move to Gisela or Tonto Basin where I can wake up in the morning and see the Mazatzals to the West and the Sierra Anchas to the East and the Superstitions to the South and the Pinals, and the Apaches and the Salt River Mtns, and AAAAGHHH! I'm OK now. Deep sigh. Those Payson boys are gettin all over the Coues deer - with their bows. This is very encouraging. And very interesting. Mike

I think CHD needs a change of company with all that arguing and fist fighting going on. Muleys are called carp in Az because they let the Coues have the steeps and they like the lowlands (bottom feeders). This label is given in affection. This is not a racial slurr - really! But I think we could try to humer some other species: I know a person who has had too much exposure - for his liking - to the politics surrounding the big horn sheep. He refers to this species as the "Cliff Carp" (they can suck a living off of any rock). Really folks, lets honor these animals and our hunting heritige by our ethical actions in the field, working for conservation and educating people. But please, lets not elevate the status of animals to diety. It's not sacreligious to call a deer a carp, a toad or a gorilla. Political correctness is a deseise that should be kept in quarantine. Let's have some fun. I ain't seent a brawl yet involving two or more people discussing their favorite ani-mule to hunt. Mike

Looks like good clean fun to me. I enjoy hunting muleys and coues. The variety we have out West is outstanding. I like to hunt whities in Az. and Muleys in NM. I choose to not limit myself by picking a favorite. If someone gets offended over something like this, they must not have anything else in their lives to worry about. Print them. Mike

A friend of mine killed a 90 class buck in the Chino Point area N. of Seligman about 15 years ago. This is really weird. If I was lookin for coues in Dec/Jan I wouldn't go there. I have spent a lot of time hunting mule deer and elk in unit 10 over the last 25 years and have yet to see a whitetail. I have heard reports of whitetails being taken (again few and far between and over the years) near Williams. E-mail me and I'll offer a legitimate suggestion. Mike

I've seen some funny things at salt licks - with mule deer. I watched a doe lick the salt block and then pick up her head and wave her tongue around her nose and mouth like a dog eating peanut butter as if her salivary glands were about to explode. And then do the same thing again and again. I have also seen another doe stand there and pick up one small rock after another (they must have been salty) and chew and swallow them! I think deer can become a bit addicted to salt (especially in drought years). I know more than a few deer have been taken by hunters while enjoying their salt. Mike