COOSEFAN
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Posts posted by COOSEFAN
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Coosefan,
The last bull I shot was double lung shot, a little high and back, but it still hit both lungs. When we started tracking the bull, he didn't bleed at all for atleast 50 yards; in addition, he bugled after the shot. We waited an hour before tracking and found him after 150 - 200 yards dead. Have you seen double lung shots, or other solid shots that didn't show the typical signs?
I've seen similar shots like you described many times in the past and the outcome is never predictable. High, low or back, a shot can appear to be in the lungs when in actuality it just missed them or barely caught one. You just never know for sure unless you see him crash or tip over. Also, just like Tines said, you have to be honest with yourself about what the shot placement and angle actually was, especially when relaying the event to the person/s helping you. WAY too many times in the past I've tracked bulls that were supposedly "Double Lunged" when in actuality they weren't, and there are some that I unfortunately never found out where the hit was! When your adrenaline is flowing and you replay the event in your mind, it's easy for the facts to get jumbled up or you are afraid to admit to yourself the shot was bad. Stay focused and truthful on exactly what you saw and heard.
The split second when your arrow or bullet takes flight is when you become a "detective"! Try your hardest to remember exactly how the animal was standing and where you actually saw the impact if possible. Mark exactly where you were sitting/standing and also mark the tracks the bull left on impact. One big thing to always remember is to use your ears immediately following the impact. Listen for direction of travel, if the bull stops or keeps going, for heavy breathing, for an arrow slapping trees (easier back in the aluminum days)or for other elk running that you know aren't the bull you hit. After being patient and waiting the appropriate time, get on the track and pay close attention to his stride, direction of travel, any irregular identifying marks to his hooves, if one hoof is hitting harder or favoring a side, is blood on both sides of the track, is there bubbles in the blood, dark red, light red, clear etc.. Like I said earlier, take your time, mark the last blood, and make note of every last detail.
Couple scenarios that come to mind:
We once had a client that shot a bull, said it was double lunged perfectly, and almost tipped over in sight. Was right at dark and to be safe (because I rarely believe shot placement is actually where I'm told unless I see it first hand) we waited till first light the next day. We found very little blood and spent 2 days looking for that bull with several guys doing circles the entire time. We killed that same exact bull the next year, alive and healthy, with a different client and the previous clients broadhead with several inches of shaft were still embedded in his spine!
Another instance, I had a client shoot a bull and I couldn't see the shot, but she said it was perfect. Waited 5 hours and got on the track with very little blood. The bull was drooling and the spit had bubbles in it which when dry was still visible on the rocks. My friend and I crawled around for 3/4 of a mile following dried spit and tracks and very luckily found the gut shot bull!
Another, Last year, you all remember the big thread about the bull that was shot and lost because another guide ran in on the bull after our client shot him. That bull was supposedly hit with a high double lung and everyone thought the bull was lost because the other outfitter pushed the bull. The bull was pushed but was never going to die. The shot was actually above the spine in the straps and had completely healed up 2 weeks later. My rifle hunter and I got to inspect that one up close ;-)
I can go on and on with past experiences. Elk are typically hard to kill. Even solid double lung hits can be long and tricky track jobs. Just pay attention to every last detail and don't rush it! JIM>
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I personally do not like the G5 Montecs at all, and only because I've seen a lot of critters shot and lost with them. I'm sure the issue was the lack of sharpness and was before they came out with the "Improved Sharpness" versions. I'm sure they realized early on that the heads weren't sharp enough. I think having confidence in both the Shwackers and the Montecs and having both with you is a smart idea. Use the Montecs if you are shooting thru a screen, use the Shwackers everwhere else. Best of luck!
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Shotgun gets hot from shooting and when you eject a round they can pop out very rarely but it has happen.
Those dam quads man I've seen them put people in crutches, hospitals, canals, ditches, you name it a quad has put somebody there.
I've never heard of that! I was gonna guess somebody was playing a joke and threw a live shotgun round in a campfire, that's the only way i figured that could happen. I'm not accusing you or your friends of being that stupid, but I know myself and my friends were that stupid many years ago!
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HA, look who it is! Awesome job Wes! I know my archery bear is one of my most valued trophies, just something about hunting them with a bow, you'll never forget the experience! That's a beautiful bear, congrats! JIM>
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I herd that Vaquers Outfitters took hunter in unit 9 and killed a good buck this weekend with the governs tag. Any one seen pictures yet?
Dangit! I had heard they were out there, it's probably true. That would be 1 less big buck in Unit 9, and there weren't many to begin with!
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Opening day of Deer season would be my first really day of scouting... every day before that really doesn't matter much as soo much is changing and new deer will more through as the hunt progresses...
Yep, any scouting before hand would be to just familliarize yourself with roads and terrain...and to enjoy that warm fuzzy feeling knowing the tag is in your pocket! For the first or second hunts, scouting for certain bucks is much more worthwhile.
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Now that doesn't happen everyday! Way to go Brian, congrats to you and your dad! JIM>
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I recently just bought those same boots in the Bargain Cave at Cabelas. They looked brand new, not sure why they were returned but I got them for $90! I have worn them quite a bit since, even in wet conditions and they have been awesome. My buddy swears by them and he puts more backcountry miles on than me. At his reccomendation, I also went to WalMart and did that Dr. Scholls computer thing to find out which specialized inserts to buy and have been wearing those insert with these boots. Not sure if it's just because of the inserts, but I can hike all day in these and never get sore feet, and that's a first for me! JIM>
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That's awesome! LOVE the flyer too! JIM>
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Those bucks could be purple and orange and I wouldnt have noticed. Sweet pic!
+1!!! Very nice! Thanks for sharing
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But if it did "magically show back up" that would be an admission of guilt by the guy who took it. Let's hope he has a concience and does the right thing - but it's hard to expect that from someone who would just take it in the first place.
Personally, I'd have a lot more respect for the guy if he just manned up and admitted to taking it "in a moment of passion" and gave it back with an apology.
I've been hoping it's still in Mexico and a friend or family member of the guy would return it or make him feel guilty enough to return it himself. My Mexican friend has been putting the word out in the hunting community surrounding the guys involved and have been hoping the peer pressure may help. I'm sure even in Mexico it's a bad thing to be known as a thief.
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Huge congrats to you guys and thanks for the story and pic!!! JIM>
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Dang Jim - I sure hope you get it back. You might have timed this better though. Isn't there a big expo coming up? If this guy gets wind that you've got a volunteer army looking for it, he probably won't display it in Phx. If there is a big one coming up, might have been better to wait until he was set up and the CWT'ers could give him heck.
One very nice deer BTW. Sorry it was stolen.
The guilty parties were made aware recently that we had an idea who has the rack so I figured now it won't be at any upcoming shows. If they did get it across last January, then there is a chance they had it at the early spring shows because that would've been before they caught wind we were hunting them down! Hopefully it's still in Mexico, then there's still a chance that it'll magically show back up, not likely tho. JIM>
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Have you been checking eBay? I swear I saw one similar to that a couple of months ago...
I have been watching ebay and haven't seen it but I also don't check it constantly so it's possible
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Thanks for the reply's all! I haven't said anything about this until now because I was hoping to get it back and figured if it wasn't publicly announced I would have a better chance. I've since learned that the guilty parties involved are aware that we have a good idea who has it but they aren't willing to give it back so now I'm figuring it's a loss. There's also a possibility that it's here in the U.S. and if so it wasn't brought here legally. They could've tagged it and got it across which is possible, still not legal but legal enough they wouldn't be afraid to show it off here. I don't know if it's here for sure and I also don't expect to get it back now so that's why I'm finally posting it. I'm hoping that by sharing the pics, whoever has it can't claim it as a buck they found or killed and benefit from it. It was an awesome buck to see in person and definitely a one-of-a-kind so I'm sure somebody will see it somewhere eventually! Thanks, JIM>
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Howdy guys and gals, I've been sittin' on this since last January but now decided to post it up.
This is a buck that was found on one of our ranches in Mexico. It was several years ago that I aquired it and and I've kept it in my friends ranch house ever since. I had put an old archery tag on it which had my name and address so just in case somebody visited the ranch they wouldn't take it. It was great to take hunters every year to this ranch and show them the rack, but then it disappeared!!!
My friend had let another outfitter hunt his ranch early last season for Mule Deer while we were hunting Coues on a different ranch nearby. After that hunt was over and that outfitter had left, we showed up to find this skull missing and the tag I had on it cut off and in the trash!
My friend has been trying to track this guy and this skull down and get it back but hasn't been able to. I know who this outfitter is and he's always at the big shows in the states. I've recently been told by several of his past clients that he uses racks and pictures at his booths of bucks that weren't killed on his ranches or he had nothing to do with, but he claims they're his and books hunts using them.
Because I have no hard facts, I won't say his name, not even in PM's so please don't ask. He is NOT a sponsor of CWT.com either! I have heard that he may have already got the rack across the border and is intending to use it in his booth at the shows and may have already displayed it this past show season.
I'm posting this in hopes that if any of you see this rack you'll please let me know! The guy that took it knew exactly what he was doing and by cutting my tag off and taking it he blatently stole it, and that just pisses me off! If it is on this side of the border I won't be able to get it back, but I can definitely make sure this dude regrets cutting my tag off and taking it! Thanks! JIM>
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Years ago I was at Casey's in Flagstaff dropping off some bulls when a guy drove up with a bull in the back of his truck. He told Casey he had shot the bull the night before and had retrieved it at daybreak. Right away Casey told him the meat was probably already bad and proceeded to stick a long bladed knife into the neck meat and made a quick ten inch cut. The rotten smell instantly hit everyone that was standing in the area. He made it pretty clear that it is important to do your best to try and retrieve elk if at all possible.
I carry several flashlights and a UV light for tracking blood at night. The blood you find close to the shot should determine if tracking should be immediate or not. David
The only time I track immediately is if I see or hear the bull crash. I've walked up on and pushed way too many wounded bulls and almost every time that happens the chances of finding him again are drastically reduced. A wounded bull with a marginal hit usually won't go very far before laying down the first time, especially if he wasn't spooked bad prior to the shot. This first time he lays down is right where you want him to stay!!! Once a marginal hit bull get's up from his first bed he can and will go for a long time before bedding again which greatly increases your chances of loosing him. I see it happen every year!
David, I would guarantee that Casey didn't automatically assume the meat was bad just because the guy left it out overnight, UNLESS it was a Late hunt, in that case I would assume the same. On the early hunts, if you leave a bull out overnight and find him right away the next morning and cut and hang him right away, you'll have very minimal meat loss and sometimes none at all. I would guess Casey assumed the meat was bad because the bull was probably not boned out and just laying exposed to the sun in back of the truck? Especially if he went straight for the neck with a knife, that's the first meat that will go bad if you don't bone it out asap!
I'm sure you all can tell I don't take wounding and losing bulls lightly, it's the worst thing ever, but how you treat the situation immediately after the shot is what will determine the outcome. Sometimes a loss just happens regardless of what you do and it's out of your control, but usually it has everything to do with how you handle the situation right after the arrow or bullet hits the bull!
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Also, the first thing I do when I first walk up to a bull and regardless if he laid there for 1 hour or 8, I take a knife and make a cut from the back of the skull all the way to his tail. I cut the neck meat down to the bone and then along both sides of the spine and pull back the back straps to the side so you can cut under them as well. This will allow these thick areas to cool while you are taking your pictures and if done correctly you won't notice the cuts in your trophy pics. Lots of folks are afraid to make that cut down the back of the neck, but it's fine as long as you keep it straight and centered on the back of the neck. Also, make sure you or the hunter don't want the backskin rug before you do this, otherwise you'll have two halves! JIM>
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How do you know if the meat is bad?
If it's bad, it'll smell bad or have a green tint to it. Sometimes it'll seem fine but then the butcher may decide it's not good later. I will always take the meat, even if it's questionable and keep it separated from the meat I know is good, and let the butcher decide.
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The #1 thing to worry about is not giving the bull enough time to die. This all depends on the shot placement and arrow penetration. I'm not afraid to track at night and typically do it a time or two every year, but it's only if I feel it's a good shot. The bulls I let go all night, or have all day, are the ones where the shot placement is bad or unknown. If I know a bull is shot far back or low or high, I'll have no problem backing out and giving him at least 8 hours. Another thing to pay attention to during the early elk hunts is rain. If storms are a possibility, I'll wait close by or at the start of the track and if I think it's going to rain I'll get on the track early. If I have to start on a track early, I'll take it very slow and glass ahead methodically as I go. Not being able to glass ahead or read the sign as well is why I usually don't track at night on marginal hits. On any blood trail, especially if you are going after a poorly hit bull or an uncertain shot, it's always best to have 2 guys. 1 guy is responsible for taking it drop by drop, followed by the 2nd guy who should be glassing or looking ahead of the first guy while marking the last drop of blood found. Slow and very attentive to every detail of the track is key!
Worrying about the meat loss is always secondary to me, recovering the animal is first and foremost. If the shot is good and there is good sign at the start, give him a full hour. If you are not sure but think it's good, give him 3-5 hours. If you know it's bad, give him 8!
I unfortunately have experienced more losses than I care to recount and that's the reason why I'm always very careful to not push any wounded animal. As an example, i've sat and watched a gut shot bull for 11 hours before finally deciding to send the hunter in for a finishing shot. Unfortunately that hunter made an even worse 2nd shot and the bull was never recovered! Hindsight, since I had a visual on the bull, I should've continued watching him instead of risking the second stalk. Every situation is different, the one I just described isn't common, but never rush, always be patient and cautious and give the animal plenty of time. Don't worry about losing some meat, it won't matter if you lose the entire elk!
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On the early elk hunts, leaving a bull over night usually doesn't result in much meat loss and if there is it's usually the neck and/or the side that is laying against the ground. It depends on how long the bull survived into the night and how fast you recover him in the morning too, so you never really know for sure. If you recover him late the next day and he's been laying in the sun, that's obviously not good and will for sure have meat loss. My philosophy has always been, "I'd rather lose some meat instead of the entire elk!" If the shot is anything less than good, or if you are unsure of the shot and it's close to dark, I'd leave till first light.
Also, the elk on the early hunts still have a summer coat and that helps with not losing meat as fast, regardless if it's 30 or 60 degrees at night. But, on the late hunts, when they have their winter coats the risk of meat loss is much greater and it doesn't even matter if the temps are below freezing! I've seen way more meat loss on late bulls left over night than I have on early bulls. I will make every attempt possible to NOT leave a bull overnight on a late hunt, unless I'm sure the chance is too high of bumping him and risking a loss.
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I've got a pair of 8.5x42 EL's and a pair of Swaro 15's for sale! Not sure on prices yet, but I need to get those new 12x50's asap!
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Good luck!!!!
The first thing that came to my mind was exactly what Yotebuster said!
That can be the most frustrating hunt you've ever been on because of the lack of deer! There are some and there are some bigguns, but they are few and far between! You really have to have an intimate knowledge of the unit and where the deer are typically found to even have a decent chance at killing one!
For somebody that doesn't have much prior knowledge of the unit, I would stay in the lower elevations and glass as much country as possible. If it's wet, I would walk the canyons in these same lower elevations until I found a track and run em' down! Best of luck! JIM>
Utah Hunt 2012 VIDEO
in Mule Deer Hunting
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Fricken awesome video!!! You captured the feeling and spirit of the hunt better than any other video ever posted on here! I loved it! Congrats on the great hunt! Jim