Umpqua

Agreed. I think it would be hard to go wrong with either one.

P.S. I am pretty familiar with several of the outfitters on the Kaibab: Duwayne Adams, A3, Zero Guide Fees (Travis McClendon), Tyne Heckethorn, Jason Bond. If I decide to use an outfitter is there one that really seems to standout on the Kaibab?

Dang, I kinda wish I could help someone out. I have often thought if I hunted 10 for antelope, in theory I could pull someone up a few points in exchange for scouting intel. In 5B however, with only one nonresident bonus tag and only four total bonus tags I'd probably be better off to play it safe and apply on my own.

I am the lone nonresident with 29 points and there is one resident at that level. I will draw 5B if I apply.

I believe this is the latest from AZGFD (December 7th): https://s3.amazonaws.com/azgfd-portal-wordpress/azgfd.wp/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/11105858/F-12-Dec-Comm-Mtg-Dedicated-Funding-Public-Awareness-and-Ed.pdf

I am wondering if the Arizona residents have heard if the super point idea is gaining traction. If it looks like it will happen, I definitely need to burn some Arizona points this year. I am waffling between 12B late for deer or 5B rifle for antelope. I have the points for either tag.

Thanks Big Browns. This is designed to appeal to hunters with less points, many who have already enjoyed hunts on the tags they drew, to take cuts in the bonus point line for a few bucks a year.

This morning I became aware of the Super Bonus Point proposal. This was my comment online to AZGFD on the proposal: "BONUS POINT" BACKGROUND: During a 1986 hunt, my guide expressed an idea for a draw system that gave applicants increased draw odds after each unsuccessful year of applying. In 1988, I drafted a letter and sent it to most of the western fish and game departments, including Arizona. In that letter, I described the concept and actually coined the term "bonus point". I received letters back from New Mexico, Oregon, Idaho, Colorado, Nevada and Oregon. In 1991, Arizona adopted the bonus point system. Nevada and Utah have as well. As a nonresident of Arizona, I have accrued max deer points (22 points), one less than max for antelope and sheep (29 points) and 20 points for elk, so I have been INVESTING in AZGFD's bonus point system for nearly 30 YEARS and am on the verge of enjoying the fruit of that long term investment. Since I don't hunt Arizona on years I don't draw, the thousands of dollars of hunting license and application fees have been paid strictly towards future tag opportunities. I have even flown down to Arizona to take Hunters Safety. If a "super bonus point" option is only allowed for ONE SPECIE and those points are retained until drawn, I will be forced to choose which of these four species to move forward on and which three to leave behind. It will DEVALUE a point system people have ALREADY INVESTED in! It will most deeply affect those who have invested the longest. I hope AZGFD sees the ethical and legal problems with this. This would not be the first time AZGFD has devalued points. With the recent change to nonresident tag allocation (5% cap in the bonus pass), my "certainty" of drawing certain tags in my lifetime (13B AZ Strip rifle deer for example) has already vanished. That change has already devalued the investment of long term nonresident applicants. The new "super bonus point" (for one specie) proposal would again further damage that investment for residents and nonresidents alike. For me the problem compounds. As a divorced parent, I have been buying licenses and around 20 points each year for my six children for the past 14 YEARS to eventually create hunt opportunities and memories with them. I have also been applying my wife for the past 9 years. Our family is on the verge of several high quality hunt opportunities that we have ALREADY MADE a huge financial investment towards. The "super bonus point" proposal could threaten the investment by forcing us choose a single specie to move forward on. Actually, I am not opposed to paying slightly more (say $10 per applicant per year) to help with AZGFD's funding through some method, but please make certain that any adopted plan does not DEVALUE THE INVESTMENT ALREADY MADE by your most LOYAL and LONG TERM customers. Here is the way I look at it. Imagine if an investment company offered a retirement savings plan, and drew customers into that plan with certain future expectations. Then 20 or 30 years down the road, just as people began to reach retirement and enjoying their investment, the company cut the benefits down to a fraction of what was originally offered. That would not only be unethical, but likely illegal. I entered AZGFD's bonus point offering with my eyes open to the investment I was making, and under the ground rules laid out by you. Please to not devalue that investment nearly 30 years down the road.

We are returning one tag off a party app. The plan worked for us too. The last two NR tags in the bonus pass.

We just had our card hit @ 7:33 am for two nonresident elk tags!

Just got a text message at 7:33 am...."ACCT #XXXX Citi Double Cash Card $1300 at "AZ GAME &". That's gotta be two nonresident elk tags!!!

I'm at 24 for elk in Utah but bought a point since we will be burning our elk points in Oregon this September. I'm at 25 for desert sheep. I think I need to become a resident and draw a tag.

Everything moved back a week, so the late November rifle elk hunts are December 1-7 in 2017.

A few have mentioned the Montana Missouri Breaks sheep tag (unit 680)....they're right on!

Good plan, what I finally had to do was about 6 months before my card expired (in the spring), I called the credit card company, explained my situation and asked for a card that expired anywhere between September and December and they took care of it for me. We have too many apps out in various places for it to expire any time between January and August.

That's awesome. Congrats to your dad!

I believe that report only shows those those applicants that actually applied for a tag in 2015. The reason I noticed that is that I bought a point and have 26 points for next year. The report did not show anyone that would have 26 points next year. The following report shows the point totals for all applicants for the 2016 draw. https://azgfdportal.devaz.gov/PortalImages/files/hunting/draw/bonusPts/antElk2015/Individual%20Bonus%20Points%20Totals%20by%20Species.pdf

Umpqua, it doesn't sound like you have any experience or a clue what you're talking about!!! J/K!! That was an extremely good write up that covers all the important things about muzzleloading in restricted states! How about a pic of your unit 61 bull?!? My bro is sitting on 22 pts and I have 16. I think I'm gonna grab my ankles and go to unit 40 with an outfitter this year, my points are worthless anywhere else. Wish I could trade them off for AZ or UT points!! Yotebuster...that's funny! I think your brother would love Unit 61. It's on the upswing. The quality of the bulls has definitely been getting better the past 2-3 years. We saw 60 bulls and had 16 in shooting range. Had a 350-360 class at 20 yards and the primer had fallen out of my muzzy on the mornings hunt (I still make amateur mistakes!!). Killed a nice bull the next morning. I had 22 points last year and realized there were too many in my point pool and ahead of me to catch the NW corner in the foreseeable future. I have given the pic to Huntin Fool, so I can't make it public. If you can go the outfitter route, Unit 40 is a killer unit. Speaking of AZ points, I had planned to burn my 16 Arizona elk points this fall, but I messed up my shoulder on my CO hunt and can barely get my wife's 35 pound bow back. I am gonna cry I think...ha ha. Now I'm trying to figure out a firearm hunt I might have a shot at drawing.

Oregon, where I live, has similarly restrictive muzzleloader regulations, so I have been refining my set-up since the early 1980's. Below is my current set-up for states that allow 209 primers (like Colorado): Rifle: 1) Knight DISC Extreme 50 caliber. Best price is often from Sportsman's Warehouse. 2) Williams FP Legend Peep Sight 3) XS Sights Front Base 12-2035A-039-1 (from manufacturer) 4) XS Sight Stripe Front Post: 11-2006A-450-2 (from manufacturer) 5) I change out the factory ram rod with a solid aluminum ram rod (grimaced on eBay) and a Spin Jag (eBay). With the above sight, I aim off of the top of the front post, that way you have a well defined aiming point (the top of the white stripe). It does not cover up the aiming point like a bead or fiber optic does. A bead or fiber optic can cover up around 6" of the target at 100 yards. This sight is very forgiving in various lighting conditions, where a fiber optic can sometimes be a bit finicky. Load: 1) 85 grains (volume) of Blackhorn 209 powder. Best powder by far!! This load is quite efficient in converting this powder to bullet energy. If you go much over 90 grains of powder, the bullet will "strip" from the rifling and the accuracy will tank. 2) Two 0.065" thick vegetable fiber wads. Fiber wads prevents the flame from scorching the lead conical. 3) 460 grain No Excuses bullet (these are 50 caliber lead conicals, just under 1" long, so legal in states like Oregon). These are not simply cast bullets, but rather are die sized to 0.503" and prelubed for easy and consistent loading. They are available on the internet from No-Excuses. The best lead conical I have found and they are reasonably priced too ($25 for 50 bullets + shipping). 4) Fiocchi 209 primer (616). These have a soft "pressure" at ignition which ignites Blackthorn 209 well rather than driving the bullet off of the powder, which can result in poor accuracy. Most muzzleloader barrels today are designed for sabots, rather than full bore sized bullets. The Green Mountain barrels on Knight rifles are one of the few barrels that consistently shoot lead conicals extremely well. You want a long heavy conical (400+ grains) in these fast twist "sabot" barrels (1:28) to properly stabilize the bullet and get accurate flight. The long bullets also retain energy far better for those longer shots. I have two rifles with the above set-up. My first one shoots 2.5" groups at 100 yards. The second one shot an 0.8" group at 100 yards the last time out (open sights). I have a third rifle which is still new in the box. I also keep about 500 of the No Excuses bullets on hand. As you can tell I'm pretty sold on this load and set-up. :-) Shoot one shot before hunting so that you are hunting on a fouled barrel for consistent results. Clean the gun with normal rifle cleaning products like Hoppe's 9 solvent with this powder. I burned 22 points in Colorado for Unit 61 this year and killed my bull with this load. The bullet entered the shoulder and exited just ahead of the rear ham on a quartering towards me shot. With a scope and saboted bullets, this would also be a great rifle for Arizona or New Mexico. With a "Western Conversion Kit" you can shoot #11 caps or musket caps for the most restrictive western states like Oregon. I feel the Knight DISC Extreme is the likely best multi-state muzzleloader that is readily available. I've gone through probably a dozen muzzleloaders and thousands of dollars in components over the years to arrive at this set-up.

When I have that situation, my wife is always the one who drew! Congrats to you!

Does anyone know what is the deadline for credit card updates?

When is Arizona opening up online applications? The website says "Arizona Hunting Regulations 2014-15 are Available Online Paper applications for fall hunt draw now being accepted; Online applications available early to mid-May" It seems like today, May 20, could qualify as "Late May".

Ha ha…what class was that?

As for my wife and I

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