geoffsl

It is beyond time to change the Arizona big game draw system. Please give this a read. Sign and share if you agree! https://chng.it/W2mymt9wpC

Like I said and the whole point of my post was to say I don’t agree with the way we handle the distribution of tags…like I also said, there probably isn’t a perfect system…you charts really highlight the problem…and it really is depressing. I have never tried to hold out for only trophy hunts (for example turkey, deer and javelina) and I have only put in for archery bull…I have my reasons for putting in for the unit I do…it’s not the primo unit in the state but yes it is a good unit. I appreciate you sending the charts. That helps visually explain the dilemma.

Obviously, you didn’t read any of my post…jumped to a lot of conclusions about who I am and what I do…I am like everyone of you… simply made one point….and every talks about how dumb I am for putting in for a hard to draw units…and that I must not be a good hunter and just a whiner…really don’t give a crap what you think. its a simple question and don’t try explaining to me how the draw system works…I promise I have read its studied it using the departments own published odds charts etc…so stop trying to prove you know more. And telling me how I should put in for different hunts… my belief with out bastardizing it; yes or no? Do people get tags before the first person in line? Just answer that question… of course, as we all well know…the answer is yes Now here is the part that makes some of you go crazy…….in my opinion which I have more than well earned the right to voice no more or less than any of you… I don’t think that is right. That’s it…there is no more to it. there may or may not be a better way to do it but bottom line that is how I feel. And I guess I am alone in that thought..it doesn’t make me a whiner it doesn’t make me a snowflake I just believe first come first serve….

Me too. Just haven’t gotten to be the trigger man and carry the bow guy.

Yeah maybe there is a difference when it comes to expectation. . .But arent we required to purchase a license? and don't we spend money on the app fees. . .and those add up. and if you are the guy I saw this morning that has 33 points for big horn and still didn't draw, knowing that someone drew with less points. . .that hurts. and we are all getting there. ..My boys (now in their mid to late 20's) have been on one elk hunt of their own. . .and only two of the three have ever hunted antelope, we have 3 deer hunts over the same period of time between the 4 of us. So yes, I am bitching. . .so we can agree to disagree, I would like to see the system changed to be more equitable.

typically, AZ, NM and WY. I have put in for CO and UT in the past, just cant afford the fees every year. I have looked at other states (MT) but don't have the confidence in a DIY area that I know nothing about.

I guess thats why I am saying something. . .I would like to see it changed. . .we don't have to accept it just because. . .but whatever. I am sorry that I love to hunt, I am frustrated that almost every trophy or near trophy or better than average hunt is becoming a once in a lifetime hunt opportunity. Clearly, i am the only one who would like to see it done more equitable like some of our neighboring states.

If you wont read the departments own material. . .then I can't help you understand it. . . this is straight from their publication; for elk hunt #03149 3a/3c archery bull. After reading it, you can clearly see. . .only 20% of the tags went to the bonus pool. . .and in this case 5% went to the out of state people. . .and with a bonus point in hand you had only a .006147 percent to draw that tag. In the gen pool you have right around a 2%. . .so put the two together and you have less than a 3% chance to draw. . . .I am sorry I didn't say UP to 10%--in this case it was half that. . .but my point still remains the same. . .there are people who drew this tag ahead of people who have waited longer to draw it. All I am saying, wouldn't be nice to know that the person who has been waiting the longest. . .I guess we can agree to disagree 03149 All 125 25 2225 1842 4067 11 14 22 25 25 100 Res 125 25 1319 1133 2452 9 10 18 19 19 Res% 59.28 61.51 60.29 81.82 81.82 76.00 NonRes 12 6 906 709 1615 2 4 4 6 6 NonRes% 40.72 38.49 39.71 18.18 18.18 24.00

You are hilarious. So funny. I imagine you are just as o.k. with going to a restaurant, ordering your food and watch plate after plate of food getting delivered to people who ordered an hour after you. . .or so jovial and fun when you are at the grocery store with a cart full of items as one by one people from back of the line get rung up ahead of you. . .but youre right I am such butt for thinking that first come first serve should be a thing.

I got it. . .we are saying the same thing. . .except you are saying that you are guaranteed a tag at some point because you have the most points. . .thats only true if the number of tags in the allocation exceeds the number of 1st and 2nd choices from the randomly selected numbers. . .I am saying and quoting them and take them at their word when they say. . .it does increase your chances (no matter how small). Even they admit it--that the points do increase your odds however small. But I do get what you are saying. . .yes the more points you have the better your chances. . .that is true. Sorry, not to make it clear that I understand that and so yes I can say I agree with you. My whole point is very simple. . .First come first serve. and if you want to give people a chance. . .reverse the percentages and more people who have been waiting longer will get tags ahead of those who haven't. I get it you don't like that idea. . .but every where we go. . .that is the way it is. And it is weird to me that it is not that way for us in Arizona. . .many of our neighboring states have success game management strategies with more equitable ways of issuing tags. Their fees are any more than ours. . .etc. etc.

The tag issued was TAG #1. I don't know if you have every paid attention to that, but they print right on your tag, what number your tag is. So I got tag #1. Which again, I thought of course was funny. . .but because I had 6 points to draw it made sense that I got the first tag. So the year before, I didn't draw turkey with 5 points. . .it was the next year I drew with 6 points. Which is why I said, I was fit to be tied when I didn't draw with 5--who would have thought 5 wasn't enough to draw turkey. Yes, I put in for the same spring gobbler every year and will continue to do so. . but now that I dont have the points, I am not sure when I will get drawn again. . .to my point about the system . .I could draw again next and someone who hasn't hunted in a couple years gets skipped again.

here it is "How do Bonus Points work in the Big Game Drawing? There are 3 phases to the Big Game Drawing – the Bonus Point Pass, the First-Second Choice Pass, and the Third-Fourth-Fifth Choice Pass. For each phase of the drawing, a random number is generated for each application plus additional random numbers for each group bonus point (which includes the Hunter Education and Loyalty bonus points) credited to the application. The lowest random number generated for an application is used in the drawing process. again, as they say...yes your points increase your odds. . .with the cavet of (NO MATTER HOW SMALL). They couldnt be more right. Regardless. . .doesn't change the fact that people get tags out of order.

I wish I were. . .we I drew this year. . .I had tag #1. . .and I thought no shoot. . .who else had six points for turkey? But my point is it is statistically possible--and I proved it. just like sandhill crane. . .should be hard to draw but since they don't accumulate points for that everyone has the same chance. . .and with turkey. . .think about, everyone has the perm point for hunter ed, most people have the loyatly point. ..so everyone is in both the bonus pool and the gen pool. . .so if you have a 1000 people put in and only 500 tags half of you aren't hunting that year. And all you have to do is look at a roulette table and see just because it hit red last time doesn't mean its going to hit black this time. . .trust me, I was fit to be tied not drawing turkey with 5 points.

I am sorry you don't straight from their website "What is a Bonus Point? An accumulated credit (or point) that authorizes the Department to issue a Big Game Drawing applicant additional computer-generated random numbers during a draw. The bonus point system grants an applicant one random number entry for each bonus point that has been accumulated into the drawing for that species. Each bonus point random number entry is in addition to the application random number entry itself. This system provides applicants with an added chance of receiving a low random number in the draw, hence improving their draw odds, while still providing a chance (no matter how small) for any applicant to get drawn." and now re read the last line. . .(no matter how small) and compare it with their own publication. . .about bonus pool draw odds. the sum total of odds for my to draw that tag (3a/3c archery bull) was less than 1%--that number is from their own website. . .so tell my how I am supposed to get a tag from that? it will never be guaranteed. eed tag from that? it will never be guaranteed.

I am defintely putting in for good units with nice animals. . .all I am saying. . .yes I know I can draw more frequently if I set my sights on lower quality hunts. . .I get it. I am saying we need to do something about the fact that every year someone with a shoot ton of points gets passed up by someone with less points. A perferential system vs bonus system.

I almost exclusively hunt with a bow. . .and have only hunted elk with a bow. And you are never guaranteed to draw at anytime. . .the only way you are is if fewer people put in than there are tags. our bonus points only increase our adds. . .but for unit 3a/3c archry bull last draw. . .you had less than a 1 percent chance to draw in the bonus pool pass. .. according to the game and fish publication. and a little better than 3 percent total with the general pool entry.

I agree with you, that I know it is going to take a long to time draw. I am saying it is not fair that someone who hasn't waited as long as statistically speaking the same chance to draw as me and even after not drawing this year, I am back to the same boat. . .statistically speaking, no better than the next guy to draw. That is what I would like to see changed.

Not as funny as your ignorance. . .the best part is; you are making my point. . .thank you. I wasn't bitching that I have waited forever. . .someone asked how long I put in for and what units. . .so i shared. But to your point, there are LOTS of people with more points than me. . .and they just like me, they have seen people who haven't been in line as long as them get tags. That is my point. I am promoting the notion that FIRST COME FIRST SERVE. Most every where we go that's how it works. We get bent out of shape at a restaurant when someone who order after us gets their meal before us, we dont like it when at a grocery store people cut in line. We don't like to get cut off in traffic. But, I guess when it comes to hunting. . .we are ok- and shouldn't bitch about people getting tags who haven't waited in line as long as us.

Thats a start. .I know some states won't let you put in for a tag for up to five years after you draw. . .don't know how I feel about that. But something has to change. People are getting tags ahead of people who have waited longer and spent more with not much better chances the next go around.

the point is, look at the game and fishes own publication. . .if you do the math and the research you will see exactly what I am talking about. the publish it on their page. I am not making this up. And regardless. . .the bottom line is with out question. . .people who have been in line for a tag get passed by people who have waited less. . .period, not up for debate. That is well known fact. All i am saying is that people who have waited the longest. . .should get preferential treatment. . and the closest we come in AZ is more names in the hat for a VERY limited number of tags. Again, using AZGFD's numbers, I had a total of 3% chance of drawing my tag of which more than 2% of that came from the general pool. . .so again, people are getting tags ahead of people who have been waiting longer and have spent more along the way for the chance. and really no better odds the next time around. But I guess if you think that sounds fair. . .no sense discussing.

absolutely not, I am saying this because this doesn't affect rich people--they go where ever they want--NM, WY and buy landowner tags or pay for guided hunting opportunities. If you think about it, what I am suggesting is what they do in other states--a preferential system VS our Bonus system. The difference being, we should issue tags to who is in line the longest. . .first come, first serve. You may have to put in ten years to get drawn--meaning you pay app fees and license just like now, but no one gets a tag ahead of some one with more points. Game and Fish still collects their money and manages the game. I never said, I didn't want to pay unless I got drawn, I am tired of paying all the fees and having no better chance (statistically speaking) to draw next time. Guess I am alone.

and your point is? We shouldnt try to hunt in trophy units? and for those of us who do, we should compete with the same odds as everyone else. Your point isn't to say the system we use is fair, its to say put in for easy to draw hunts. . .but that doesn't change the fact that even in that (putting in for easy to draw units) people get tags ahead of people who have paid more money and waited longer for the opportunity. Taking six points to draw turkey is ridiculous.

I understand the system and Yes I understand I am eligible for the 70% pool as well not 80 as you suggest. 10% goes to out of state. . .so it looks like you are the one who needs the refresher course. so using the departments own draw odds publication you can see, the bonus pool pass issued less that 1 percent of the 1st and 2nd choice tags to people with points and less than 2.5 percent to those who had no points. . .so in this case, you have a total of 3 % of drawing--with a better chance getting the tag from the general draw than the "bonus". Look at Hunt #03149--again using the game and fish publication. You are welcome to refresh you understanding. . .and maybe it more people did they would understand why what i am suggesting is fair.

Other states do it way better and are a lot more fair. Yes, the change would benefit me, but it would benefit anyone who is tired of spending money and never getting to hunt.

Nope, I am from Mesa. . .20 years for big horn, 14 for deer, 16 for antelope, it took me 6 points to draw spring turkey. Its everywhere.