azborn2hunt

as expected....

FYI to everyone out there. On this Jay sponsored site; There were a couple member posts that 'liked' and replied to my posts.... those "likes" and posts were deleted!!!! GONE! That's to bad jay tisk tisk

Thanks Vowell for your support! Anyone else? I know there are a ton more of you out there but maybe not on this site. Raising this type of discussion on this site will always fall on deaf ears. Most here are guides or wishful guides or friends of guides. Look at the sponsor list. Its like walking into the opponents huddle. But I knew that when I started giving Jay Scott a little bit of a hard time on page 1. His excuse (and some of his followers) made me roll my eyes after reading his reason for not finding his archer a big bull by his standards... after 30 days looking... . I'd be scrambling for a smoke screen too. That poor hunter spent a ton-o-moola with huge expectations because of the unit he had drawn and guide he hired to do his work. It was Diehard who made the comment to jay that he expected something better from the unit. Then came the statement "extreme droughted antlers" was the answer to the question. No one is perfect and it's ok to have a bad hunt.... it happens. But "extreme drought"??? really? and to your cocky statement above Jay... you are right. But you'd be more right if you drop the last four words from the sentence. I know I know that was mean and uncalled for! Lighten up people! Its just sorta fun to taunt the opponent in their huddle.

Jay I sincerely respect you and your skills 'as a hunter' too. You and I have something a lot of people don't have... Time. Whatever motivates you and I to devote 'time' to hunting may or may not be different. We are no better than anyone else in that aspect. If we give time to anything in life, we tend to get good at it. I have a friend who continued playing racquetball after high school on thru life. He loves it... and now when I play him on occasion, it amazes me how good he is as he destroys me. He devoted time to it, that's all. My hat is off to you as a person for what you have accomplished with elk hunting. I personally don't like that you decided to start guiding a few relatively short years ago, because now you are impacting the wildlife (and me) in an ever increasing way. Just my respectful opinion. Your only response to me about guiding was to address 'guide behavior." That to me really is a very small part of what I want to communicate. Guides can and are nice guys too (I agree with you). I have had issues with their behavior (even this year) BUT the real issue is the main point I made about guides running a biz on 'public' land with public wildlife as their product for sale. I have observed a downward-trending effect of the quantity of truly large bulls in our trophy units. Extreme high pressure on these animals by guides has a large impact. My opinion. There is a ton more that can be injected into that debate from both sides of the fence... and its a fair discussion to have. Does anyone on this site agree at some level?

12345678 & cbyant1- To your short comments, We are on different sides of the fence that's all. You are 'pro' guiding. For me that means: guiding(for big dollars) on our public land, Using our property(public wildlife) as their only product to sell, while taking away from the working guy an exorbitantly high volume of our biggest bulls, making it harder and harder to find the shrinking population of 380+ monsters. "That reason" is more likely true than Jay's "extreme droughted antlers" as why he didn't find his client a reputation bull. I DO hunt those monsters exclusively. I have killed plenty of game in my life, and now I am willing to go home empty handed if necessary. I do not want any new laws banning it ... I would love to see it fade away by peer pressure to-and-from fellow hunters. Causing a lack of enthusiasm to be leashed-up and lead around by a guide, for obvious reason. Its just about changing hearts not laws. No to your jealousy comment because I have done very well, BUT yes to great satisfaction that I kicked the blog-machine's asterisk. Remember the only reason I addressed Jay with a different opinion was because he made excuses for not finding his archery hunter a bull to match is rep. My experience was different. The tid-bit of taunting was just fun for me and yes, driven by my dissatisfaction of what guiding has become in the last 20 years. In all sports we taunt the competition. UofA fans will always taunt ASU fans, visa versa. PEOPLE need to get it... we are in a competition here with the flood of guides. When we draw a coveted Unit 3C, 10, 9 or 8 tag, you instantly become COMPETITIVE to find that giant bull. And that too is the main thing guides are looking for(not the smaller bulls). Its not the quantity of elk they kill.. its the quantity of huge bulls they kill, and the pressure on water sources they create. You work hard, scout hard, keep your mouth shut when u find a great area so no one else can get the advantage over you. Its a chess match and Its all good!!!!! But when one group has an unfair advantage, we take notice. We can't compete with the countless DAYS and days that are spent through the summer, financed by someone else with a lack of desire to earn it(in most cases, not all). Then have them park signs on water holes to guard them. Guides 'back in the day' were low key and a non factor. Not-N-E-More! They are in your face and everywhere. They have change the landscape. If you hunt non-trophy areas then you probably have no idea what I'm talking about. Guides leave those areas alone because they are competing for that headline bull. Wake up. Look at the websites... you wont see units like 6A,6B, 5A a their specialties... They hunt 3C, 8, 10, etc. Big bulls only, that drive more paying customers. Its these customers that we need to reach. Its just an observation. Don't change laws...just hearts. If their market isn't there because of lack-of-enthusiastic-buyers, then guides will reduce to historic and normal levels and start helping people who actually need help(very small number) So maybe you're right 1234 - I am jealous they are taking from us by selling our elk... with an extreme (unfair) pressure on the monsters. I have the money to hire a guide if I chose to. Its just so far from my heart to even consider. Just an opinion, and I know many with the same... and hoping more will soon agree. Who's the newbie? I have grown up in Arizona. I have seen and felt the effects of this new phenomena .

Pixman- nice message. You're a good person for sure. It was Jays excuses that caused me to jump-in with my experience is the area. But I made that choice I know. Its just to bad a guy sank 5 to 6 THOUSAND dollars into expectations that Jay would find something close to what Jay has a reputation for. Then hear him blame the bad antler growth this year. His hunter could have saved that money... gone solo... and done as good or better on his own with money left over to take his wife on vacation. However the hunter is a local and chose not to put in some effort... but that's another discussion. They are the guys that guides feed on. Either don't care to give an effort OR to afraid to go solo in a trophy unit, in fear of not shooting a monster when all his friends expect it. Its OK to come home empty handed people. For you out there that don't hunt unit 9, 10 3C etc... you have not seen the impact guides have on the quality of the hunt. Not always, but there's a good chance in those units you will encounter the negative effects of many guides... on water especially. So yes to someone earlier who said I just have a beef with Jay. Its to bad the youtube/blogging marketing machine is selling a 'product' that belongs to everyone. In this case "elk". Owned by you and I... he is snatching the best of the best bulls right from under our noses to turn a profit. WE CANT COMPETE for the same big bulls because he spends 'time' that we don't always have (30days scouting!) really! its frustrating... but what can u do. So yeah it feels good that I spent a ton and got a chance to help a friend kill a dandy and a 'profit margin' wasn't the reason I was there. "Just friends and family and no one killing our monsters out from under us for the money"... that's my daydream. Guiding is a new animal from what it was 15-20 yrs ago. So to those of you on teamJay, he will be back next year and probably doing just fine.... killing more toads, collecting more checks... and many of you cheering him on. PIXMAN... I like your message. You're a nicer guy than I am.

That's a fair question Pixman. I really did have a great hunt(my buddy's tag) so that's why it struck me so much about Jay blaming the unit for having "extreme droughted" antler growth and not just owning his slump this year. As mentioned above, he has a rep to protect. When does a person who simply has a different opinion have to 'show proof' before his opinion is considered? Even if I didn't have the experience I did, I would still know/believe that 'extreme' droughted antlers is an inaccurate summary of this years bulls. I know I am not 100% right but that's my opinion. I am absolutely certain that if I post pics of proof... it won't change anything and I will still be the bad newbie here who dare object to the great scott. (Dangit! Note to self: I have to cut-out the sarcasm cause it doesn't go over well here). So forget I hunted the unit this year. Lets just say I spent approx. 30days driving the roads and walking the draws, all without a camera(just my eyeballs). Would you say I am not allowed to offer an opinion because I did not document my experience with pictures as proof. Pictures posted or not doesn't change 'reality' either way. But Pixman I appreciate the question and the way you put it. I understand the whole "Home turf" thing and how we all (me too) seem to have this thing about discounting anyone who is not from here... or someone new here... or not a local. Its easy to bash that guy who seems to rub up against a local boy. Pics won't change a thing because it really was my tone that was listened to... I admit I was a lil edgy.

... that's what I thought.

3owhut- Ur sarcastic too! but I'm OK with that. You said Jay has a reputation that others have given him? saywhat? Like all of us, Jay has a reputation that he created himself. His 'elk hunting' reputation is very good because he is a very good elk hunter. You got all defensive because I have a different opinion than his... and because I seem to use a little sarcasm in my posts, all in fun. I don't want to hurt your feelings when I say; man-up a little, and stop kissing up to a guy that (unlike your post) I probably know better than you do. Jay is a VERY good elk hunter, we all know that. I know from personal experience and most of you assume its true because he has shoved it down our throats with an unusually high volume(for one person) of vanity pics and vids on utube and the blogworld. I read another thread here at the mule deer forum (200" buck in 36A), Everyone there seems to agree that posting pic/vids online is not what most people run out to do when they kill a buck/bull, and actually most refuse to. They have no need to market themselves or a biz so they enjoy their success in a modest way. not right or wrong either way. So we agree he is good at finding elk... with that comes a certain expectation. RECAP: Jay posted his archery hunter's bull. Diehard commented that he expected a bigger bull than that. Jay put the blame (his inability to locate a big bull) on nature because there wasn't enough moisture to grow big antlered bulls( not his fault). Jay went on to write about what he called "extremely droughted" bulls this year. I was in the same unit and was lucky I guess because I found plenty of big bulls. So I had to say something here... and offer a different opinion. Someone wrote and implied that if Jay didn't find any big bulls then they didn't exist. I have to roll my eyes at that. At that point I knew what I was up against. I saw a 'normal' quantity of big bulls. Jay said my 'normal' must be different than his 'normal'. My normal is 360+ as a 'big' archery bull. Jay has created his reputation. So as it relates to elk successes... people like diehard questioned what happened with his archery hunter?. I would not have chimed-in if he didn't start blaming "extremely droughted" antler growth AND start a discussion(ASKING for opinions) about the topic. I was there and I disagree with his theory. That's all. Im sorry bowhut, but did you have any good material to add to the topic with your experience of big or stunted antlers this year? or did I just create a brownie-point opportunity for you with the guide...

ooops... Im meant Bonercollector... not kaffer62,,, Sorry Kaff my very last line was meant for him not you. You're not a whiner at all. And everybody... stop feeling sorrow for the Jay. He's a big boy and has chosen to talk about how we see the hunt this year. I never said he is bad,,, and never mentioned Darr at all. I know ur all used to patting each other on the butt around here and I like butt pattin' too. however a little discussion is healthy too And I contributed to another fellow member by answering his question and wild horses. .. thank you vm

Those were/are Navaho Indian horses loose. (assuming we are talking about the same area) They shouldn't be there. The fence on the Nav side is not maintained well and the Indians aren't too worried about it.

Jay, its just a different opinion of what Unit 9 was like for me this year. Please don't feel a need to say I have a "personal beef with you" just because I have a different opinion from yours. You asked for it remember. I have said some nice things about you too. Sure I have thrown-in a lil sarcasm... that's what guys do, so don't play the victim card that I'm someone who has a beef with you personally. And then play the hero card and say "leave cmag out of it", "deal me me if you have a beef". Come on man, We are just talking here, why make this more than it is? Stay on topic . I know you're not comfortable with people with a differ opinion than yours on your sponsored forum(mix with some sarcasm, I know I know). Instead of rallying the troops against me, why not ask me some clarifying questions about my experience to demonstrate you actually are interested in others opinion, including those who don't support yours. You say u stand by your statement that poor antler growth is your answer to diehards question of him expecting to see larger bulls from you in 9. I think its a true statement and you should stick with it. Its true that you guided Mr. Ott to the 'location' where antler size was smaller than usual. Location, not smaller antler is my opinion of the best topic this year... and not to say that unit wide "extreme droughted" bulls was your problem... and topic you started. To diehards observation, Remember, you were the one who created this expectation that people have of you and your skills. Own it when you have an off archery hunt in 9. The spot light is on you more than anyone else because of the endless flood of vids/pics when someone simply googles elk in Arizona. ( sarcasm again... I apologize in advance). Its just an observed fact nothing more. Location, location. location. You're familiar with that, right Jay. Every year is different in 9 and scouting is always necessary. Some years only vary slightly where bulls are... this year varied widely from past years. I only can assume it was the massive monsoon we had up there. We were lucky (blessed) and went out looking in unconventional places. Elk were using these places in numbers unlike past years. They seemed pocketed more that most years. But it didn't happen unit August. All summer we found them in the usual places. Then the rains fells an forced us into scramble mode. Location is the topic for me; Elk are mostly grazers. Elk burn a lot of energy in the fall (cows included). God has wired them to know how to find the best energy source available at that time of year. It still amazes me how they find these places for fast. Look for the good grasses (growing densely together in large expanses). Grass is everywhere but there are many pockets that will make you look twice.

I was in unit 9 too. Jay.. these are just man to man observations based on your writings. After all, you did ask for other opinions. You are a very good elk hunter. I happen to know that. A lot of us are. However, most folks are average elk hunters only because that's their choice. The choice is simply... "time spent". Most hunters don't have enough time to be really be good at finding elk. Either because they don't have it at their disposal, or they just don't make it a priority. You and all guides happen to have a commodity that most don't have... something of value. You have 'time'. With it, You have found success. Time spent is the real secret to anyone's success. By spending that commodity, we get a return dividend of know how. Its that simple. Over-rating the need to master an elk call and marketing other gadgets is leading new elk hunters down the wrong path. I say, Simply with a Primos external mouth call such as the Lip Service... and nothing else... a guy with a little know how can down any big bull out there. Knowing how to move on elk is way move valuable than thinking you need to know how to call one in. Know-how comes from a willingness or ability to spend time out there. Most don't. Making excuses? You have had past successes. So don't be surprised when guys like diehard makes a valid point. You said 30 days were spent in unit 9! Then where's the beef? We expect more from you in unit 9. You have created this expectation that people have of you with all the videos and pics at every turn on the internet with ytube and bloggn'. Its a marketing strategy for you of course. When diehard said he expected unit 9 to have bigger bulls than your archery hunted was lead to... You then implied its not your fault and quickly blamed the "extremely droughted" bulls. You gave a stat that 98% of all bulls were stunted with antler growth. Because I was in the same unit I had to say it wasn't the case. We saw many bulls with poor 3rds, 5ths, and main beams. But we saw the usual number that were jaw droppers too. Our experience in 9 was a complete 360 from what you claimed was a bad year. Maybe we got lucky and found the few rutting pockets way out there. You didn't... no biggy...it happens. Its OK to say it. Its a difficult pill to swallow when there is a rep to protect. My guess is that you will be back in the saddle again next year, doin just fine. cmagnet, You said; "If jay and darr spent around 30 days up there and didn't see anything over 360 or so the pickings were slim" "Jay and Dar are tenacious rabid animals" SO jay is the best... and if jay couldn't find a big antlered bull.... then big bulls don't exist this year. That's an eye roller. Pedestal may have been the wrong term for me to use, and u missed my point. Apparently you're in their fold of guides and there's not much I can say. I have been in unit 9 since I was 10 hunting deer with my dad and bros. Back then there wasn't an elk in the unit. Now its hard to find a deer. I wanted to give my opinion to your coat-tailing with Jay opinion. It was a very good year to see large antlered bulls. It must have been the giant monsoon that changed things up so much and threw most guides for a loop. I smile to know that. you're ok with me saying that right? Jay is right about one thing... Its always great to be in God's country, enjoying His majestic creation!

With all due respect to you cmagnet, I don't know who you are, what you do and what your expertise is(not asking) And you don't know me either. However it seems like you must be the statewide elk check station monitor. Your first post reads like every hunter statewide reports their kill to you so you can measure the antler growth. So if you do have some roll in checking-in elk kills... then my apology. However, I am absolutely certain that you have not seen most bulls taken this year... and the bulls I saw(killed and alive) and the one I helped with... were giants. Just know that not everyone runs to post their pictures online. If we want to talk about what was learned this year, antler growth isn't the topic... Location is. The elk were extremely pocketed this year in the N.az. unit I hunted. Most bulls we found were low in known areas and shockingly pocketed from past years, and they were hanging in places out there I have never seen them in before. Very hard to find. There were Big areas where sign is usually found but weak this year after July ended. For the most part, we found two tiny pockets where the bulls were tearing it up. Water was everywhere in the unit and not the factor contributing to these two small areas. We had a huge monsoon season that changed the landscape and maybe the elk were just hitting old rutting grounds of the past. Healthy grass was abundant in these spots and the only physical thing we found that seemed to be what held the elk out there. We shot a 375 bull and tried getting on 3 others larger (1 was a beast). "Antler growth" was so far from our concerns. Similar stories were told from people we know. To say the guides are so great in their scouting and mapping, and because they couldn't find the trophy class bulls this year... you and he imply the whole state must be suffering from antler growth issues. Then start to discuss poor anther growth/drought conditions. Hey, everyone has an off-year (ask Eli Manning). could it be possible they did too? Putting guides on pedestals makes most of us chuckle. You may be shocked at the number of guys out there (average Joes) who can hunt, scout, read maps, find pockets better than most. And not charge a dime to help a friend. It was a great year for antler growth... pocketed antler growth I guess