40-year-AZ-hunter

How long have you owned the shotgun?

Congratulations. I'm thrilled to see one go for that much money. I hope mine are in that range if I decide I need to sell.

I have a pre-64 Winchester model 70 Westerner .264 magnum that I've owned for 35 years and rarely shot. Recently, I got to thinking that I should see if I could equip it for shooting 400-500 yards. Trouble is, I have not found a load that seems to work well in it. Most of the loads I've tried have been with components I've had on the shelf for many years. Sierra and Hornady 120-140 gr spitzer bullets, IMR 4350 and 4831 powder. Most of the loads I've tried have grouped in the 2-3 moa range. The best shooting load is Remington 140gr Core-Lokt factory loads at just over 1 moa. I know bullets and powders have been improved over the years and am thinking that I need to try some "modern" bullets. Do any of you have suggestions for a brand/type that is particularly accurate, especially in 6.5mm? At this point, I'm not really interested in the likely performance on game, but rather in working up an accurate load. I'll worry about whether it's a bullet suitable for game later. The rifle would be used for both deer species in AZ and antelope (if I ever get that lucky). If you happen to shoot a .264 mag and have a specific load that has worked well for you and would share the info, that would be wonderful too. Thanks for any suggestions. Bruce

A round and a flat file work great.

"We don't have any "semi-primitive" areas in Arizona " I just read this thread altho I was aware of this ruling some time ago. Just for all of your information, the forests in Arizona have LOTS of areas designated as "semi-primitive". It is one of the classifications the FS uses in what they call the Recreation Opportunity Spectrum (ROS). These areas are prevelent in all of the Arizona national forests. The semi-primitive classification is further subdivided into motorized and non-motorized. If this ruling was to go national, MUCH of the forest service land in Arizona would be affected. Just Google "ROS" and "semi-primitive" and the name of your favorite forest. You will find lots of references. You can also ask the forest for a map of the ROS classifications for the forest.

Got 'em Phil. Thanks so much! Bruce

You're likely already in that range with Remington factory fodder. What dies are you using and have they loaded accurate ammo for another gun? FL sizing just enough to headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt, or bumping them all the way back every time? I believe they are RCBS dies (cant remember for sure as I have a number of die sets and am not home to double check) and I have not had another 264 to load for. Interesting question tho since the factory ammo groups better than the handloads I've tried to date. I normally try to set my sizing die (for anything I'm loading) back just enough so it only neck sizes. I guess I should say that altho I've reloaded for 45 years, I've never had a rifle that I had to fret over being too precise in order to get reasonable groups. I do however weigh each charge. Heck, I'm not expecting 1/2 moa. I've just been frustrated that this rifle is so fussy. Part of the reason I broke it out after many years is that I was thinking I wanted to buy a .257 Weatherby but could not afford it. Then I got to thinking that my old .264 should do anything a .257 Weatherby will do so why not just try to set it up for longer range shooting. Again, longer range to me is 400-500. Normally, I dont use my favorite rifle (a pre-64 featherweight .270) at over 250 yards. It shoots about MOA with just about anything I feed it. Thanks again. Bruce

Have you looked at the throat with a bore scope or just with the naked eye? Unless you look through a bore scope, even a cooked barrel looks sharp and clean to the naked eye. Sorry! M Just with the naked eye. I have a .243 that has visable throat erosion (again with the naked eye) and it shoots quite well. I'd be very surprised if it is "shot out". Also, as I said in the original post, it will shot just about 1 moa (at 100 yards) with Remington factory ammo. I guess if nothing else I can just shoot factory ammo, but that just does not sit right with me. If I cant get it to group better with some modern components, then I'll shoot the factory stuff. I'm not trying to shoot near as far as some guys do. Consistently in 6" at 400-500 yards will be just ducky with me. I guess another alternative would be to take it to a gunsmith with a bore scope and have them tell me what it looks like to them. Thanks again guys for all the suggestions! Bruce

I'd love to have them Phil. I'll send you a PM. Thanks, Bruce

Hey Matt, Thanks for the info! I've got a couple questions if you dont mind. I've reloaded for 40+ years but never tried for nats-butt groups, therefore, I've always worried more about the bullet and powder to use than the particular brand of cases or primers. Do you have any thoughts on how much difference it really makes to use Federal 215s versus other primers like Remington or CCI? The same question for cases, ie SuperX versus Remington? I have cleaned the gun well with Sweets and Hoppes. The bore looks perfect to me. The lands are sharp right to the front of the chamber. Another question (sorry, but as I mentioned, all my stuff and experience is with decades old components) regards "moly coated" that you mentioned. How do I know whether a particular brand of bullet is so coated? Thanks again!!!! Bruce

Thanks Jeffro. I have found over the years that older rifles (and this rifle was made 50 years ago) seem to be more sensitive to load development and are probably not as inherently accurate as new rifles. Old rifles had wood stocks which as you point out are more problematic bedding. The triggers (factory) were not as crisp and the advancement in making barrels all tend to argue against the older factory rifles. Since this rifle is worth more in original condition, I dont want to modify it. If I cant fing a load I'm satisfied with, I'll just put it back in the safe. I will be very happy with a load that will consistently shoot 1 MOA. I'm hoping that the stock rifle is capable of that since it will shoot Remington factory loads at just a little worse than 1 MOA. I've also got a pre-64 featherweight .264 that I bought 20 years ago. I only shot it one session and IT shot 3-4 moa. The pre-64 .264s never caught on and I think one reason was the inherent inaccuracy of the loads available back then. I'm hoping that with some better bullets I can improve it enough to feel comfortable taking it hunting. I'm hoping that the improvements that have been made in components, especially bullets, will let me achieve my goal. I have to believe modern bullets are more consistent than 35 year vintage Sierras and Hornadys. Someone told me that 6.5mm bullets were kind of a second class stepchild back in the day. heck, part of the problem is probably that I'm not as steady as I was 35 years ago either! Thanks for the names of some brands to look at. A 140 gr would be great.

Just saw your story Nick. Congratulations!! Great ram! Bruce

"If you buy them new they will cost you $1100.00" Does Leica even make the BAs any more? I thought they replaced them with the BNs about 8 years ago and then replaced the BNs with the Ultravids a few years ago.

Sold. Thanks. .

I have a very nice Simmons handgun scope that I just don't use anymore. It's a Simmons ProHunter 2x20. Silver in color. No ring marks. No scratches. Lenses are perfect. Long eye relief. Only trouble is I lost the turret caps. $30. Pick up in N. Phoenix. Bruce

In my humble opinion, asking which is better Leica or Swarovski is like asking whether you prefer blondes or brunettes. Both are great and to each his/her own.

That's great to hear. I also have a LRF1200 and if I remember correctly they only have a 2 year warranty, but I have heard that in the past few years Leica has gotten much better about fixing things no questions asked. I have other Leica optics that are also out of the formal warranty period so it is great to hear how they treated you.

Jay Scope turned out to be Televid 62! Will put it to good use! Thanks for the scope! We went bear hunting but didnt get to "your" area. Still no bears where we went (area where I told you). Good luck to you. Bruce

I'd like to buy your scope and sent you a private message. Thanks.

Looks like everybody is trying to extend sales while this recession is hurting dealers and manufacturers. Look for some super deals as the holiday season approaches. That's the big time for retailers and if they can't lure customers then, their business may be in trouble.

Thanks Buck., guess I'm going to have to learn some new tricks. Bruce

Could you tell me more about calling with the woodpecker sound? I've called for many years, but have only used the old fashioned rabbit calls. I'd love to hear more about the alternatives, especially from someone who is having some obvious success. Thanks, Bruce

It wont be after this goes into effect. In fact, you may not be able to drive to a kill. It will also severly restrict where you can camp. "Dispersed" camping is in their sites too. Bruce PS. Larry, sorry I started another thread with the same article before I saw yours.

Guys, You may already be aware that the various Forests in AZ are going thru a road analysis that will result in travel management plans for each forest. These will determine which roads stay open and which are closed. It will also determine where you can camp and whether you can go off road to retrieve downed game. The preferred alternative for the Kaibab part of Unit 9 is out and it will close about 75% of the roads and prohibit off road travel to retrieve big game. There are groups in AZ such as the Wildlands Council that are advocating even stronger restrictions. WE need to take this process seriously or we will be shut out of some of our favorite areas except to foot or horse travel. Copied here is an article from the Arizona Daily Sun (Flagstaff) Oct 11 issue (the link wont work so I've copied it). It gives you a flavor about what the debate is. This is happening NOW. If you care at all about your future motorized access, camping ,etc. PLEASE get involved. Most of the forests are holding meeings in Phx. You can contact the Forests for meeting schedules and deadlines for comments. Bruce Johnson Flagstaff Article from AZ Daily Sun...... Forest road closures spark clash By CYNDY COLE Sun Staff Reporter Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:05 AM CDT Game and Fish says a proposal to close hundreds of miles of forest roads southeast of Flagstaff is overblown The Coconino National Forest should propose 100,000 acres of new wilderness along Clear and Chevelon creeks and close hundreds of miles of dirt roads southeast of Flagstaff in a crucial bid to protect wildlife, one conservation group has said. Game and Fish officials say the concern for nonendangered wildlife is overblown. As forest planners weigh road closures amid a national directive and a $40.2 million road maintenance backlog, the Grand Canyon Wildlands Council has proposed setting aside 30 special reserves for mule deer, pronghorn antelope, black bears, mountain lions and prairie dogs. The group would like to see up to 75 percent of the dirt roads closed along some parts of the Mogollon Rim, including multiple routes that end at the same destination. They blame to roads for fragmenting the landscape, spreading invasive weeds and wildlife disturbance. "We're going to have to make some changes in how we manage public land if we want to continue to have pronghorn, mountain lion, antelope and bear," said Kim Crumbo, of the Wildlands Council. Local Game and Fish officials disagree with his dire assessment. Closing the smaller dirt roads won't likely do a lot to eliminate the road kill more common to larger highways and freeways, said Game and Fish Regional Supervisor Ron Sieg. "I really just don't see those little two-track roads being much of an impact," he said. And there are already driving and other restrictions in place for the few animals that have been deemed threatened or struggling -- northern goshawks, Mexican spotted owls and pronghorn antelope. The proposed wildlife reserves would dot Anderson Mesa and run southeast to the Tonto and Sitgreaves national forests, helping to establish statewide wildlife corridors from eastern Arizona to the Grand Canyon. "There's still a lot of roads for people to drive around on, but we say this is one of the most biologically diverse areas in the state," Crumbo said. Global tracking has shown the pronghorn to be more adversely impacted by roads than any other animal, local Game and Fish biologist Rick Miller has found. When a new fence goes up next to a highway, the pronghorn won't jump over, Miller said. Their migration patterns are believed to have changed as a result. The Kaibab and Coconino forests are both planning road restrictions for upcoming years. The Tusayan District of the Kaibab has gone first, but nothing's changed yet. Whatever is decided there could mean major changes for hunters, Sieg said. If hunters are limited to a few main roads and not allowed to allowed to drive cross-country, camping sites in popular areas could be packed. Cyndy Cole can be reached at 913-8607 or at ccole@azdailysun.com. If you go... Travel Management Planning Meeting Date: Saturday, Oct. 14 Where: Main Lobby of Coconino High School, Flagstaff Time: 1-4 p.m. What to expect: The October meetings will focus on informing the public about the Travel Management Rule and on how to effectively take part in the Travel Management process. On display: Maps of existing motorized trail system and initial suggestions for changes to that system; the major natural resource concerns related to motorized travel; and the fiscal and management constraints the Forest Service faces in maintaining the motorized routes. For more information and meeting times: http://www.fs.fed.us/r3/coconino/tmr.shtml

Dave, Do you know who the 1 Commissioner was that voted not to support 106? Also, I heard that AZSFW was supporting 105altho I dont see anything about it on their web site. Bruce