Hunter X

What I don't understand is if the AZSFW is all about helping AZ wildlife and not about making money for themselves or catering to some of their wealthy backers then why not make all the tags raffle tags, get rid of the administrations and any other BS fees and put all 100% of the money generated from these raffle tags into conserving AZ's big game. That being said I don't know why the G&F would give out tags to an organization to make money from by auctioning or raffling them off when the G&F could due this themselves and cut out the middle man.

No disrespect taken. I haven't seen that thread yet but if I have the time I'll check it out later. I haven't really been on the site too much lately so maybe things have change a bit in the last year or so but I was a bit shocked to read some of the post that were made about myself and the shooters in the video. I was more interested in hearing what others thought about how the deer reacted in the video then making a point. This is what I've seen so this is what I have to go by and to me at the time it didn't seem all that sporting. As far as your other question I have no ill feelings towards hunters that take shots past 500 yards. There are a lot of guys out there that shoot better at 600 then I do at 300. Thanks for the complements and the reply Jim. Yea I'll admit that last one at the mule deer was pretty tough to watch. I can't remember if I ever thought about yelling at them or not. I do recall trying to reach them on the radio a couple times but other then that I can't remember if I ever thought about yelling. When I look back on it I should have just hiked over with them instead of staying back to video but I thought they knew enough that they could handle it on their own. I guess I was wrong. There has been a lot for me to take in since posting the video and there has been some very good points that has made me think differently about some of my opinions about all this. Now that I look back on it there were a bunch of ways I should have done differently. Posting threads is just another thing I'm just not very good at. All I wanted to do by starting this thread and posting the video was to encourage hunters this off season to do as much as they can so that when it comes time to pull the trigger they are ready. I thought by posting a video of this nature people would be more motivated to make sure this doesn't happen to them and that they might think twice before making a questionable shot and to try to get as close as they possibly can before taking aim. Even though it might have seem this way I never wanted to start your average long range range debate however I did want to see if others thought there ever should be a limit on how far a hunter should shoot at an animal. And not if a guy can consistently make a 1000 yard shot or not but ask ourselves at what distance if any would a shot be consider not fair chase? From my experiences I thought that anything over 500 yards could be considered in the realm of not fair chase but since making this thread there have been numerous post that say otherwise so my opinions on the matter have changed somewhat. Sorry for causing as much tension as I did that was never my intention in starting this thread.

Hey everyone I know this is long but please read it. The reason I post the video I was attempting to have an adult discussion about how deer react after being shot at in relationship to the distance they are being shot at from. Obviously I failed and failed big. But for the life of me I can't believe some of the comments that have been posted on this thread about the hunters in the video. None of you were there and none of you know these guys. So before you make any more judgments about these hunters please read what I've wrote below. The first deer missed in the video happened in Nov of 2004. He was shot at by a 45 year grown man. It was his first deer hunt and he was very excited. I've only met the guy 1 time before this hunt. He started shooting his gun every weekend after he found out he drew the tag so about 5 months. He was comfortable shooting up to 300 yards or so and he was more then capable of making the shot he took. He took the shot of a tripod so he had a good rest. The deer was facing away for about 2 to 3 mins and the guy waited until the bucked turned broadside. He shot 1 time and missed. The bullet actually hit a single limb that the hunter didn't see. I don't know how bad this effected the shot or not but afterwords when I talked to him about it he said he felt good about the shot and he thought the branch is what caused the miss. He wasn't happy at all he missed and he was very upset about it for the rest of the hunt. Bottom line the guy did everything right he just missed. It happens. Does this guy deserve some of the things people said about the shooters in this video? I think not. Now for the second deer shot at in the video. It happened Oct 2004. The hunters were a father and son team and it was only their 2nd year hunting. The boy was 13 at the time of this hunt. I was asked to go along and help glass and to video their hunt for them. We found the deer opening morning and closed the distance from 1000 yard to just above 200. Both the kid and the dad got set up on tripods so they too had a good rest to shot off of. The buck was feeding in front of us and was offering a quartering away shot. We waited 5 or so minutes for the buck to give a broadside shot. As soon as the buck turned the kid shot barely missing the buck by an inch or two high. Then the dad took a running shot fallowed up by another shot by the kid. All shots were clean misses and after talking to the kid about it he said he might have jumped the trigger a bit because he had buck fever. He too felt bad about missing the shots along with his dad. Once again they did just about everything right except for both of them taking a running shot after the first shot was missed. What can I say they got excited between the both of them they've hunted deer about 10 days in their whole life so I can understand why they were so excited. Do their actions warrant what has been said about them? I'd have to say no. Now on to the 3rd deer in the video. This happened in 2008. The hunter has been hunting for years and knows a lot about guns and shoots year round. I have seen this guy shoot and he's an excellent shot. I hunted with him for quite a while and he is a very good friend of mine. I've been with him for three of his deer kills and this is the first time I've seen him not kill a deer he has shot at. I don't know everything about his gun other then it's a long range set up and he's comfortable up to 700 yards with it and more then capable of make a 500 yard shot. He was set up on a tripod so he had a good rest. His first shot was about 2 feet high but I didn't see it because I flinched from the muzzle blast. This gun had a muzzle break and was extremely loud. I could see a bit of dust and it looked like he shot high so I told him maybe high. He decided to make no adjustments for his second shot because we didn't know for sure where the first bullet hit. His second shot was high again and this time I saw it and when I told him where he hit he couldn't believe it. He checked his turrets and they were off from where he thought they were so he cranked them down and took another shot hitting low this time. He said a few choice words and made 1 final adjustment and took two more shots that went right under the buck. None of his shots were rushed shots or shots that he wasn't capable of making. The guy just missed a tough shot to make. All shots were good broadside shots. After we got back to the truck he shot a box of shells out of his gun at various distance to make sure his gun was still on. After he found out that his gun was still on he was very upset with himself that he didn't have his turrets dialed in correctly. Mistakes happen and in the 15 years that I've been hunting with the guy this is the first time I've seen him not miss like this. So should I have told him enough is enough? He's a grown man more then capable of making a 500 yard shot and I've seen him do it time and time again. Who am I to tell a guy that is a better shot then me that he needs to stop shooting. Does this warrant the things said about the shooters in this video? If so these same comments would apply to more then half the hunter out there. On to the 4th deer missed in the video. This happened Nov 2007. The hunter is a 23 year old young man who has been hunting and shooting his whole life. He shoots year round every chance he gets and is a very good shot. I've seen him at the range and he's good up to 600 yards. We start off by getting the hunter set up on a tripod so he has a good rest. He watched the buck in his scope for a good 5 mins preparing himself before taking a shot at the buck. After this time he felt pretty confident he could make the shot and he told me as soon as the buck stops he was going to shot. The buck stops and 10 seconds later the hunter shoots missing the buck barely over his back. The shot was perfect left and right but 6 inches higher then what he was aiming for. I don't know about you but being off by 6 inches at 550 yards isn't a that bad of a shot. It's probably comparable to being off by 1 or 2 inches at 100 yards. Anyways he takes his time and takes three more shots at the buck missing on all three shots. The buck wasn't going anywhere and the hunter could have easily taken more shots but he had the will power to do the right thing and realized he should probably stop shooting so he did. We were able to watch the buck for good 15 mins and all this time the hunter could be taking more shots at the buck but he didn't. To this day I still think very highly of this guy for electing to not shoot anymore at this buck. He didn't say much on the 2 hour hike back to the truck needless to say he was very disappointed in himself. He even had two more days to hunt but he choose not to hunt anymore because he was so upset with himself so we went home early. Since then I've had the please of hunting with this guy this past season in 2010. During this hunt he had bucks in his scope on 7 different occasions twice at around 8oo yards, twice around 600, twice around 450, and once at 375. Never once did he take a shot because the right situation never presented itself. He could have easily taken numerous shots that other hunters probably would have taken but he didn't. So once again does this hunter deserve the crap that has been posted? Once again I'm going to say no. Now for the last missed buck on the video. The hunters are the same father and son team as in the second video one year later it happened Oct of 2005. The kid is now 14 and this is only the third time they've been deer hunting. We find this buck on opening morning. After finding the buck I locate what looks to be like a good spot for the guys to shot from. I range it out and it is 500 yards from our current position. To me it looks like they should be around 300 yards from the deer from this spot so that's what I tell them. When they get over to the shooting location the dad ranges the deer but it won't work. He tries a few more times and still couldn't get it to work so he thought it must be busted. Well since I told him I thought it should be around 300 yards that's what he thought it was. Boy was I off. For some reason just before getting set up to shoot they separate from each other by about 100 yards I never ask why they did this but they did. So the shots were coming in from different angles. This is why they look like they are hitting all over the place but shots from both the dad and the kid were pretty close left and right considering the distance. They both get set up on their tripods and wait for the buck to offer them a shot. When the buck finally stops broadside the kid shoots and misses. Well we all know whats going to happen if your shooting a 600 yard shot with a 308 using 150 gr corelocks with a gun zeroed in at 100 yards. Your going to hit very low. So low that I couldn't see where they were hitting in my viewfinder. So long story short they both empty there guns taking 5 shots each. Out of these 10 shots 8 were standing broadside or quartering away. I can't remember how many shots it took for me to realize how low they were hitting but I know it was at least after the 5th or 6th shot before I was able to see where they were hitting. After they got done unloading their guns and stopped to reload I tried to reach them on the radio to see how far they were from the deer but they couldn't hear me on their end. After reloading the kid takes one more shot and this time the dad sees just how low they are hitting so he tells his kid to stop shooting and to try and get closer. As the kid works his way closer the bucks finally spooks and starts to take off. Well the kid see this and sets up as quick as he can and takes two running shots both missing just behind the buck. He tries his best to calm his nerves and realized he needs to wait for the buck to stop before shooting again. The kid gets 2 more shots both standing broadside barely missing both. After everything was said and done we all talk for quite a while on what could have been done differently. We all agreed the major contributing factor in all this was the lack of experience. If the dad would have known more about rangefinders they would have never shot from where they did and should have been able to sneak up to within 200 yards. Since then they have both learned a lot more about hunting and as far as I know they have not missed any shots of their shots. The dad took a 160 class buck in 09. He had the buck at 300 yards but knew he could get closer. He ended up closing the distance to a measly 45 yards before making a good clean broadside kill on his 1st shot. The son also took a buck in 09 at 120 yards this too was a one shot kill. These guys are not as bad as some of you thing they are. They definitely don't deserve the comments that some of you have posted about them. They all try their best to be good ethical hunters. They do not go out every hunting season and lob bullets hoping one will hit. They do not dust their guns off a week before they hunt and hope it's still sighted in. Sure they made some mistakes but who here hasn't? Does this mean they should have their guns taken from them and never be able to hunt again. I'm pretty sure majority of hunters out there has missed a shot or two in their lifetime. I really don't care what people say about me because I know who I am and I know I'm not what some of you say I am. But to say what has been said about these other guys by people that have no clue who they are and how they hunt is totally uncalled for and is complete garbage.

Thanks for keeping your post civil. As of now from what I've seen no I wouldn't consider that fair chase. I'm still having a hard time considering anything past 500 yards fair chase. The best way I can describe how I feel about it is to compare it to shooting ducks on the water, doves in a tree or quail on the ground. All though it's perfectly legal to do these things some people don't feel it gives the game a sporting chance. This is kind of how I feel towards it. Another way to describe it is to compare it to a hunter taking non broadside or quartering shots. Even though it's not illegal to take one of these questionable shots we still try our best to not take them. I feel the same way about 500+ yard shots even though they are not illegal does it make it right. As 308nut pointed out there are different laws for different states. In AZ we can use radios to hunt with but in others states they are consider illegal and unethical. It baffles me that one thing can be considered unethical and or illegal in one state but not in another. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. Thanks again for the post hopefully people will fallow your lead and keep it clean. Btw I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter if you have time.

There are a select few guys on here who would say that deer act the same being shot at from 100-1000 yards. They drop in their tracks. I haven't spent a lot of time past 750, so I'm not one of them. Fair chase is a concept defined by some organazations to set a standard to allow animals into their books. Other organizations define it to what they believe is right or wrong. People who choose for themselves what is right wrong are just people who know the difference. I'm drawing the conclusion that you dont think it is fair to the animal at longer ranges because they don't spook as bad. How about the guys who are super sneaky and get right on their game. Is that fair? The animal had no chance because the archer had a 8yard shot. I guess what I'm trying to say is I dont follow your logic. Isn't one of the attributes of a good hunter, of any kind, to not be detected by the animal he or she is hunting? If the animal doesn't know you are there, hasn't the hunter done one of their tasks well? Should we announce to our target animal, that we are in lethal range, to give them a chance to flee? Ive heard guys joke around and say "hey that first one was a warning shot, I wanted to give him a sporting chance". Hunting is hunting, not killing or harvesting. Stuff happens, people miss. Ive missed, I dont always have a reason or excuse, I just missed. If you sneak up on a buck and shoot him at 8 yards then yes I would consider that fair chase because you were able to out smart the buck by getting past his senses. If you miss a pig at 20 yards and he decides to come back and give you another shot that's fair because you've out smarted the pig by putting yourself in the right position so you can't be detected. In both these scenarios there is a possibility the animals could detect the hunter either by wind shift, seeing the hunt or hearing the hunter. At what distance does an animal lose it's ability to detect a hunter? I've seen deer missed at distances ranging from 100 yards to 600 yards. All the deer being shot at past 500 just stood there and had no clue as to what was going on unless rocks were blown up on them or in front of them. In general shots between 400 and 300 the deer knew something was up and would run a bit after being shot at then stand there trying to figure what was going on. Most of the time anything under 300 the deer would just flat out run. There was one time I watch a bedded buck get missed twice at 150 yards. The guy shot over it on the first shot and the buck stayed bedded after missing high the 2nd time the buck bolted so I know there are exceptions but in general this is what I've seen. Until I see or hear otherwise I'm having a hard time considering shots taken past 500 yards as fair chase because from what I've seen they lose too much of their natural ability to detect the hunter. Just my opinion as of now.

No I'm not taking the replies the wrong way. I know some of these shots shouldn't have been taken. I never said hey guys check out this awesome video it's pretty funny. I simply ask if shooting animals at long range could be considered fair chase? Not if the guys were making bad shots or not. I'm sorry if the video offended a few of you but the only way to show how an animal reacts to getting missed at long range is to show an animal being missed at long range. I asked for people to watch the deers reaction and nothing more and clearly stated this. I want to know if people think a deer will react the same being shot at from 300 as it would from 500+ and what type of reactions they have noticed in their own experiences. If you have anything to say relating to how an animal reacts to being shot at at various distances please feel free to respond otherwise I'd appreciate it if people would stop high jacking this thread. Thanks!

I think most of you are taking this post the wrong way. It's not about if hunters can make these long range shots. There are a lot of guys out there that can do it very well. It's also not about if these guys should have been taking the shots they were taking. What I want to know is after watching the video and seeing how the deer reacted to being shot at from these distances would you consider shooting deer at long range(500+yards) fair chase?

I know this is probably not going to go over too well with some but I'm going to take one for the team as some might say. I've been hunting for as long as I can remember. I have seen and done my fair share of misses on game probably more then most. If there was ever an expert on missed shots I'd definitely be in the running. From experiencing all these missed shots ranging from 100 yards all the way up to 700. I've come to one important conclusion but before I tell what that is I want to ask a question. If a picture is worth a 1000 words then what's a video worth? I invite each and everyone of you to please watch this video I put together. Here's the hard part I want you to just watch the deer and how they react to the shots in relation to the distance they are being shot at. I know there where a lot of hunter mistakes made but that's not what I want you to look for. I want everyone to see if they notice a difference in the deers behavior in correlation to the distance of the shots being taken? Then ask yourself one question...Is shooting game at long rang really fair to the animals being shot at? Please watch and then decide for yourself... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBEHuDuvCWI

Yep I'm going to have to agree with you and a few others on this one. I took a better look at him and this is what I cam up with. Right Left G1 2 2 (hard to see) G2 6 1/5 6 1/2 G3 8 8 G4 3 3 MB 14 14 Mass 27 Spread 10 Total 101 This was just a generic guesstimate but I think I should be within 10 inches but it wouldn't be the first time I was off by more then 10 inches. I don't see this buck being bigger the the buck posted by Weston titled 2011 Buck and he was unofficially score at 115 2/8th. It looks like this bucks rack would fit inside Weston's bucks rack. Still a very nice buck thanks for the pics hunter1026.

I'm going to guess right around 110 give or take an inch or two. Nice buck!

Nice buck congrats young man! 93 1/8 is my guess.

Muley all the way. That buck is BAD!

Here ya go I looked it up for you http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/spo/2015389385.html

That's just wicked! Do all those bucks have the same bladed eye guards?

A true deer hunter notices everything in his suroundings