dobbs07

That's true, but I guarantee you my monthly ac bills are higher in the summer, than what someone is spending to heat their home. Also no one says they have to live where they do, its a choice. They could also choose to head down the hill and not pay to heat their homes but instead pay for ac in the summer like I do. It's all trade offs and opportunity costs.

How's that? I gave my opinion and provided examples and reasons for my opinion, you are the one resorting to name calling. You didn't do any thing to discount or disprove my side of the discussion, just called me ignorant. You want to give some obscure reason the road closures is unfair to tug at peoples heart strings that's fine, but you should be better prepared to back up your opinion when you state it.

Re: anthonymathews What is stopping those people from walking to retrieve their firewood. Why is it that I always see where woodcutters drove several hundred yards off road. And created huge deep ruts that won't go away for many years, just to get closer to their firewood? Should they just be able to do whatever they want because they need it to survive? That makes no sense. They should still have to play by the same rules as everyone else. If they can't afford to pay for fuel to heat their home then maybe they need to explore alternatives and/ or make different life choices. That kind of mentality that you stated is the same line of thinking that got us into this socialized healthcare mess. I don't agree that someone should be able to drive all through the forest gathering wood because their family might get cold, its a privilege that they can gather wood instead of propane not a right.

I understand the concerns regarding people that have physical disabilities, and it is unfortunate, but thats part of being disabled. Should they really be able to drive wherever they want just because they cannot walk? No one is saying they cannot go in the national forests any more, its just certain roads within the forest, no different as if there was not a road there to begin with. Some of our most beautiful country in the state is only accessible via hiking trails, under your thinking we should construct roads to all these places so disabled people can see them too. I understand that as I get older my hunting opportunities will become more and more limited due to mobility. That doesn't mean they should do things to accomodate me just because I can no longer get around like I used to. Some older hunters can no longer walk to remote canyons that hold the biggest bulls/bucks, should we make a road so they can? Some older hunters can no longer walk to a ground blind at a waterhole, should we make a wheelchair ramp to get to it? Look getting old sucks, but its a fact of life. We all have an expiration date, and we all reach an age where we can no longer do the things we love. Just like a pfo football player has to stop playing the game when age/injuries catch up to them. You don't see them changing the rules of the NFL to allow older players to use golf carts to get around on the field do you? Why should hunting be any different?

It seems like there is a bunch of lazy whiners on here. So what the road into your favorite spot is closed. Park your truck and walk in. Judging by how many lazy hunters there are based on the comments, you wont have much competition if you walk. And the 30 ft camping rule applies to your vehicles and trailers, not to your camp itself. Carry your tent and gear further from the road, its not hard. And if its your toy hauler you are worried about having close to the road, dust shouldn't be an issue anyway, those things are made to be towed behind vehicles, so they should be dust proof. Some of you guys just seem to want to whine and cry about this. Can you please tell me what's stopping you from using your legs? Lord knows with americas obeisity problem some of you could probably benefit from the the extra excercise.

Unfortunately they have to tell us what to do, because if they leave it up to us to make decisions and police ourselves, we do a horrible job of it. That's how the forest got burnt down in the first place remember? They didn't issue a fire ban, and some idiot had a fire and left it unattended. Make no mistake about it, some people are stupid. That's the reason we have to have rules. If they left it up to us there would eventually be roads criss crossing everywhere, take a trip out to any popular quad/dirt biking riding spot near town and you'll see why they have to make these rules and enforce them. I for one don't want our forests looking like that. Especially now that we've lost so much forest in the last couple fires. Another issue is lazy hunters, they see a point they want to glass from, and instead of walking over there, they drive the ranger over. Do this a few times and it looks like a road, and everyone drives it.Wood cutters drive all over the dang place too. It has got to stop somewhere, and I for one applaud them closing these roads.

I don't understand some of the posters mentality in here, they are not saying you can't be in the woods, they are saying you can't drive your truck or ATV on a road. They did the same thing in 3c after the fire. Don't be lazy, park your vehicle and walk.

Here's where you can comment: http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/kaibab/landmanagement/projects/?cid=stelprdb5301004

So I sent some feedback to forest service regarding posting signage and educating the public, and received a reply that is like to share with you guys: " I wanted to take the time to personally thank you for providing the below comments to our Travel Management online comment form. We fully agree with you that we need to have better signage to help educate members of the public about the new Travel Management regulations on Kaibab National Forest. We are working on those signage issues. We plan to have “portal” kiosks at major entry points to the forest that provide overview information about the Travel Management regulations. This is similar to what you mention in your online comments. We also plan to have other signs on roads to help visitors understand better what routes are open and what routes are closed. The details of these various signs are being worked out right now. I will share your comments with the leadership of Kaibab National Forest. Again, thanks for taking the time to provide these comments. I will ensure that they are heard by Kaibab National Forest leadership. "

Those are valid concerns guys, but you still have not given any suggestions. Most, if not all of us are in agreement that things needed changes, but we're not happy with what they came up with. If we want to improve things, we need to give suggestions, not just complaints.

To the guys opposed to this, what would you suggest be done? Just continue allowing people to go and camp wherever they want. To continue driving on roads they shouldnt, and creating new roads wherever they want? Do you also feel like the law stating people can't camp within 1/4 of a mile of a waterhole is infringing on their rights as well. Or are you glad you don't have someone camping right next to your treestand on your favorite waterhole? I don't think this is such a bad thing guys. I think the problems, and our frustrations are stemming from their lack of educating people on it, and their lack of posting which roads are open or closed, except on a map. I was thinking about how they handled 3c after the rodeo/chediski fire, and I think it could be a useful model. When they allowed public access back in, they had large signs at all of the access points with the rules and access details. If I remember correctly, they basically determined which roads they wanted people to drive on then they labeled them with arrows. On the main signs it said the only roads you could travel are the ones with arrows, and informed people what the designated camping areas and rules were. The same thing could be done with the forests now. Since they have already determined the roads they want open, they could go through and label them with arrows. Then they could put signs at all the access points informing the public. They could then enforce it the same way, if you are on a closed road without an arrow you get cited. And since everyone would have to drive past the large signs, no one could claim they didn't know the rules. Im not sure how many of you guys spent time in 3c after the fire, but for me, and for many of the guys I talked to, it was some of the better hunting ever experienced. Obviously that can be attributed to several factors including the large amounts of greenup, but there is also a good chance alot of the reason was because people could no longer drive all over the place, or camp wherever they wanted. Now most roads in there have been reopened, and camping allowed in most places, and many people are saying that 3c isn't anything like it used to be. Again this could be due to other factors, but i don't think it's a coincidence that things were significantly better when access and camping was restricted. Just food for thought. At this point complaining isn't going to make it go away, I think it may be best to provide feedback, and try to get the education and posting piece modified to improve the experience for everyone.

I personally like that they are closing many of the unnecessary small roads that criss-cross alot of our woods. In looking at the maps of both the kaibab and coconino closures, there is going to be a lot of prime quiet hunting areas for the bucks and bulls to grow big in. People are just going to have to work a little harder, and get out of their trucks and walk a little bit to get to them. Some of the places are ridiculous with the amount of people riding quads and rangers all over through the woods, and in alot of places you can't walk a 1/2 a mile in any direction without crossing a road. Take a look at some of the places in unit 8 over around white horse lake in the higher country, There's roads all over the flipping place, and the quads use them for a race track all summer. We've all been in the situation where you're out hunting, and find some awesome prime country, and start seeing some good sign, and then boom a ranger goes driving by on some small unseen logging road cutting right through an otherwise perfect area.Closing some of those roads will allow for alot more of these types of spots, and have less animals and hunters stacked on top of each other. I think this will definitely help strengthen the herds, and allow for more animals to reach an older age class. It will also most likely decrease harvest numbers, so the high amounts of tags being issued has less of an impact. However, with all that being said I take issue with a couple of things. First of all, their distribution of information on this has been awful. If not for this site, I wouldn't have known about it til I was warned or cited, which leads me to my next point. How can they not put up some closed road signs, or at the very least pull all the road numbers, and say if you are not on a numbered road, then it is closed? Would it really be that much trouble to go out and drive a t-post in the road and attach a metal road closed sign? Where this is really going to hurt is there are going to be many people that will drive the roads any way, so the guys walking in, and riding bikes in are just going to get driven by, by people who either don't know or don't care. And that to me just sucks. The other thing that really sucks is the camping situation. I think they should give us at minimum 150 yards, and all the established camping grounds that are within that distance off of the still open main roads. So again to summarize, I really like the idea of closing some of the unnecessary smaller roads that have been created by illegal woodcutters, quad riders, and people just driving cross country.I think it was definitely time to reign in some of the roads. It's going to make for some much better hunting if they can truly pull it off. However, I think for them to do so, they are going to need to post the roads, and or remove the numbered road signs from closed roads. Look I think the horse is already out of the barn on closin the roads. I don't see how we can get them to roll that back. However, I do see an opportunity to get some flexibility on camping spots, and I think we need to demand that either the roads be posted, or they say if its not numbered its closed, and to remove all closed road numbers. Thoughts? Thanks, -Matt

Hey guys, I was thinking of solutions to the issue, and one such solution that I have not really seen discussed is a bill to eliminate the sale of auction tags entirely. Hear me out on this please. If the people behind HB 2072 were so easily able to get a bill proposed to set aside auction tags for sale. Why couldn't we pass a bill to eliminate the sale of auction tags altogether? Wouldn't this pretty much stop AZSFW and Gilstrap in their tracks, as it is the main backbone of the plan they are trying to push through? Maybe this is why they tried to push HB 2072 as emergency legislation, as they were worried that we'd respond with something like this? Now it seems many of us are against the adding of additional auction tags, so let's examine this further. Why is it that were opposed with adding additional auction tags, but we already currently allow tags to be sold to the highest bidder? Why do we tolerate this at all? IMO allowing one of these tags is just as bad as having 10 of em, and just as bad as 20, etc. If we close the door entirely, then they cant keep trying to take a little more each year. Now one of the reasons that I see thrown around the most is that they are a necessary evil to get the additional revenue they generate, but it this really true? Here's my thinking: If we eliminate all auction tags, and put those tags that were previously auctioned into the AZ big game super raffle, what's to stop the would be auction tag buyers, from buying as many raffle tickets as they want? They, could spend $100,000 on raffle tickets, and not only that, but you may have multiple guys who are willing to spend this kind of money for tickets, instead of just the one winner like you would have in an auction. In this type of instance, obviously the guy who buys the most tags has a better chance of drawing a tag, but it doesn't guarantee them a permit like the current auction system does. I think that if these guys that are currently buying the auction tags, do not have another outlet to purchase the tags, they will funnel their money into the supper raffle in an attempt to win the tag instead. So to summarize, I think that we should seriously consider proposing a bill to eliminate auction tags entirely, and use the current auction tags that are already set aside to be placed into the super raffle. I think that the money lost from the auction tags can potentially be offset by the amount of additional revenue generated by the extra raffle tickets purchased in the super raffle. What does everyone think?

This is kind of what I was thinking. We can debate the merits of auction tags all we want, but the bottom line is this would effectively shut the door on Hb2072, AZSFW, Gilstrap, and all the rest participating in this power grab. Or at the very least getting a bill like this out there, could muddy the waters enough that they wouldn't be able to get their bill through legislation this session. Imagine if their lobbyists suddenly have to go on that he defensive to fight the passage of a bill banning the sale of auction tags. It would make it alot harder to get their agenda passed if they had to fight another bill at the same time.

You may see nothing wrong with the current model, but does that mean there might not be a better way of doing things? Can you or anyone else for that matter say with any certainty that the idea I proposed wouldn't generate the same or even more money than the current system?

Why is it so hard to believe? Instead of one person spending 150k you could have 5 people spending 30k. It's the same total, but a different means of getting there. It's a possibility that they may take their money elsewhere, but none of those other states consistently produce the world class animals our state does. It's also a possibility it may generate more revenue, because potential buyers see that their cost is significantly lower to try to obtain a tag. Also they could try for several years before they even approach what they would have spent in one year on an auction tag. From what I understand these contributions are often used as tax write offs anyway, so seems like a win win to me. The bottom line is without trying all we can do is speculate. And being close-minded like bigjohnson, isn't going to get us anywhere.

Thanks! I am glad to hear that. I wonder if he could put something on his blog to help get the word out?

Maybe I missed it, but where does CEI Outdoors, stand on this? I noticed they are an active poster on this and other forums, and I visit their blog often, but I don't recall seeing which side they're on?

It looks like there was a big bull picked up in unit 10 last weekend I wonder if it's the one that caused all this controversy in this thread: http://www.rutnhard.net/forum/general-elk-discussion/4091-big-boy-found-dead-lets-hear-some-scores.html

Hey guys, anyone out there that hunt 16a seen any sheep? My stepdad drew this permit, and were having a tough time locating many sheep. We have spoken to game and fish already, but were just wanting to see if there were maybe some people out there that have seen some sheep in there and wouldn't mind pointin us in the right direction. Any help would be appreciated. Please feel free to pm me any info. Thanks!

WHT_MTNMAN, what are your thoughts on the state of 3c and big bulls? I started a topic on another site with my thoughts that 3c is no longer a top shelf trophy unit and people basically dismissed it. What do you think? Has 3c declined to the point where it can no longer be considered with the likes of unit 9, 10, 1 23 and 27?

Because me my brother and father mistakedly drew 6b cow, after I called game anf fish and after they confirmed the mistake, they determined we would have drawn our 1st choice, so they are issuing us archery bull tags. I'm glad those cow tags are gonna be put to good use

Was it a 6b cow tag by chance?

sounds made up.

I have an 09 Xforce GX 70 lb 28.5 in dl, set up with a limbriver rest, spot hogg 7 deadly pins sight, and b-stinger stabilizer shooting radial x weave 300's at about 330 fps. I will try to get some pics up as soon as i get a chance, but it looks like ur basic xforce gx