GRONG

25-06 I hear ya man. Az4life, I like your suggestions. We shouldn't have to put up with nonsense like this. Can't we just talk hunting, shed hunting and having fun in the outdoors w/o some person ruining it for the rest of us? I guess there's always one guy that has to be that way. What a shame. For some reason I thought that all of us that come to this forum were all on the same side and come here to shoot the breeze. If we wanted confrontation we'd be on PETA's site raising heck over there. Good talking with you guys.

CHD, I'm not sure why you continue to antagonize me, I'm merely passing on some fact and some opinion, both of which I try to clarify in my posts. If you want to pick on me and the success of my outfit and expect me to comment or defend myself, I will not. I'm not sure what your problem is or what your beef with the world is but you won't find an argument with me here, especially on a public forum. Nor will I make stabs back at you with spite or negative comments, like you have directed at me, to make you look like less of a hunter or man. Az4ife, the mission statement you made about the G&F is hilarious!! Thanks for the nice comments as well.

Way to go AMANDA!!!

Just remember, the more degrees someone has, that usually means the least amount of common sense they have. That's my personal opinion anyway. I'd trust a biologist's numbers if they could prove to me that they spent more time in the field behind the binos, miles walked, etc instead of the mathmatical equations that they use to, key word here, "estimate" the number of deer in a unit. My father and I have both spent time afield with game wardens who tell us how they get the numbers for deer per unit. Now I don't know how they do it every year but here's what they did, according to the wardens we've talked with. During thier aerial surveys they would only fly and count the number of deer in a section. Lets say they saw 10 bucks in that section. Instead of flying the rest of the unit for a much more accurate count, they multiplied the number of sections in that unit and then again by the number of bucks they saw. For arguments sake lets say there is 200 sections in that unit. According to thier math that would make the population of bucks 2000. All you guys and gals both know if you spent much time at all in the field that there aren't 2000 bucks in any unit in the entire state of Arizona. The major problem with their system is that the section they fly might be one of the only parts of the unit that even has deer in it, therefore giving the illusion that there is plenty of bucks to justify 500 tags. Now you can play with the math all you want. Say they only saw one buck in that section. Using the same 200 sections that'd be 200 bucks throughout the unit. Now if they're still giving 500 buck tags in a unit that only has 200 bucks, given the harvest objective, there still isn't enough deer to be hunted effectively. We would all love to kill a gorgeous buck during our hunt but for the most part people are killing spikes to little 3 points on thier hunts. Majority of living bucks in a unit rarely get to see the ripe age of 3 years old. How can we ever expect to regain our deer herd if the G&F don't even know how to manage our deer? The only thing they know how to do is sell permits, regardless of game. I spend nearly 6 solid months in the field hunting and guiding each year and I can attest to you all that I might get lucky and see 25-40 muley bucks in a year in the northern units I hunt. Some years much less. The reason I'm saying this is because I'm trying to give myself a little credibility so that you all don't think I'm just blowing smoke and making up things. I've typed enough for tonight. See ya, Josh

Lee, 50 bucks was just an exaggeration of how little the game unit managers know about their own unit. There could be 200 there for all I know but saying 50 makes you think. There could be 20 for all they know and they'll still continue to pump out hundreds and hundreds of the tags out every year and continue to blame it on the drought. Wetmule should post some of his factual information he filled me in on today and it would blow your minds.... SERIOUSLY!! Your jaws would drop at how little they know about the poplulation of deer on the Kiabab and the Strip.

Get ahold of wetmule, he's a board member of the ADA and has some facts to tell that would blow your mind, and seriously frustate the pants off of you, about the G&F and how they manage the deer north of the CO. See ya, Josh

Az4life, I'm sure that has a lot to do with it for sure!!! I really don't stand behind the G&F Dept as a whole cause I'm positive that they don't give a care about wildlife in general. I'm sure there are a few that do but unfortunately those who do will never be in the positions to actually make a difference to help save what is left of the deer in AZ. Your comment, "I would also like to think that the dpt is smart enough to TEST the theory before going off half cocked and potentially devastating the wildlife in a lot of regions." is an honest one about having faith in an organization that we assume they know what they're doing. Well after talking with Wetmule today for nearly an hour, I realize how bad they have have no clue what the deer herd north of the CO river is and how badly we all need to play a serious "active" role in the Arizona Deer Assoc. Whether it's to help preserve the almighty Coues or to save what's left of the carp deer, we really need to get involved and voice our opinions. It's easy to shoot them back and forth at each other here on a talk forum but we need to direct it to those where we can hopefully be of some influence and make a difference. Be it at a Commission meeting or part of an organization that's fighting to keep whats left of our deer. The AZG&F Dept will issue 1000 buck tags in a unit that might only have 50 living bucks in the entire unit. They call that management? I call it irradication and it ticks me off! Get involved!!!!!! Good talking to you today Wetmule, thanks for all the info!!

Whats up with the 1000 buck tags in 12AW? Seriously, the G&F should throw themselves a party after the deer are irradicated this year. That's an increase of 525 tags for the west side. YIKES!! Those poor carp won't know what hit them. Other than that it all looks pretty much the same for the units I frequent. The 6A/23 whitetail hunts are interesting. I talked with the warden for 21 the other day and he said that the commission was pressing him to do it in 21 as well but he talked them out of it. But he also said that he's not sure if he can fight them off next year. It's all about allowing more hunter opportunity and maintaining the same harvest objective he said. Which I understand I guess but we'll see what happens on those two hunts this year. Should be interesting.

THAT IS HILARIOUS!!!!!! LOL!!!!! 25-06 it means Rolling on floor laughing my butt off

I know a kid that works for a taxidermist in Lakeside that makes Coues skulls and does a dang good job at it. I haven't seen any with sheds attached yet though. I'll let you know if I do.

Oh man that is sweet!! Thanks for posting those pics that is awesome!

Freakin sweet!!! I'm jealous totally jealous!!! Anytime you can go in the woods and find at least one Coues shed, it's a good day. Right on man!

Chet Dieringer found this shed a couple years back in the Huachucas. It was hanging in a mesquite bush on the side of the road and he saw it as he went by. Oh what I'd give to have that happen to me! The shed scores 57 3/8". 9" extra beam and a 6" corkscrewed dropper. Pretty dang nice. Enjoy the photos Josh

I saw a buck that was taken by, I think the first name is Steven, Ward. He lives in Wilcox and wacked a velvete biggin with his bow. I think it was a heavy 3x3 in the 111" gross range? Anyone know for sure? I'd sure like to see that 118" buck you're talking about. A bit of advice, never go to a measurers house or taxidermist w/o your camera. Telling us about seeing a big buck just teases us and I can't handle teasing... I'm very sensitive. LOL!! Josh

TREESTANDMAN, you are hilarious!!! I would have to say around the 2nd week of December in units 21 or 22. Hopefully having already done my homework checking for new scrape lines and rub lines I would already have my stand locations set. I would hope that with the pre-rut action I might catch a buck checking his scrapes to see if any ladies had left him a treat. I could be crazy but I'd really like to try this theory one of these days. Josh

Wow CHD, that came out of left field. It looks as if you're really trying start something here out of nothing and I'm not really sure why you're taking it out in my direction. I refuse to get into an argument with another fellow sportsman about something as rediculous as this. You've got your ideas and opinions about this and that's all that really matters. With all your opinions you should be directing your effort towards the Anti's instead of a fellow sportsman such as myself. Remember, we're on the same side. Good day, Josh

More D, someone else probably hung the shed there for some reason, freakin nuts!! Doug, That elk shed in the background is a massive 7pt that scores over 190"!! He found it in NM. Wait till you see the carp shed he found too. Check monstermuleys website for those pics I posted last night. Here's the link http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID18/1781.html I was buying antler from him and his buddies last night and he whipped those big boy out for show. I guess I did some sweet talking cause I'm the proud new owner of that Coues shed, lucky me! Josh

That rack was found by Brain Marshall from Payson back in the early 90's. From what I remember, he had seen the deer pre-season and when he got a chance to get after him he never could find him. It seems as if he said he went lion hunting thru that same area and trailed one right to the kill and was BUMMED when he found that it had killed that buck he was after. Grossed 131" I think. My buddy Alan owns it now. Josh

JVS, that's exactly what I meant!! This PC crap has gotten so out of hand it's rediculous. I'm sick of having to pussy-foot around certain subjects because someone might get thier feelings hurt. Nowadays you could probably get sued for hurting someones feelings. I just calls em like I sees em. Josh

I've heard lots of guys over the years talking about loving to see a specific game warden off duty so that they can kick their asses for them w/o assaulting a police officer you know. There are good wardens and there are bad ones, I believe the good ones stay around for a while and the bad ones usually get themselves into trouble and get booted to desk jobs to stay away from the public. I know of a couple specific wardens and a particular commissioner that are rotten to the core and willing to bust you for the slightest, I mean slightest infraction. Especially if you're a guide. As a guide you are held to a much much higher standard than the avg Joe Hunter. If they've got a chip on their shoulder the day you happen to run into them and you talk long enough to them than they'll turn your words against you like you can't even imagine. The best thing you can do when talking to a warden is say nothing other than hello and goodbye. It's a total and complete shame because I know that Dan Caputo (6a warden) and Tom Bagley (19A) warden are pretty dang good guys in my opinion and I'm sure there's more. Just like a poacher makes us hunters look bad so does one rotten butt warden. I shoulda been done typing after the first sentence. See ya, Josh

While bear hunting unit 31 back in 2002 I saw a 6x7 bull bugling and rubbing his antlers on a prickly pear cactus. Got the whole thing on film. Just around the corner from that I saw 10 cows and one spike all together also. Pretty crazy! In Muley Crazy magazine, I think, there was a picture of a 5x5 bull that was killed down in Mexico a year or two ago. Josh

Hey Keith, thanks for posting Dan's post, I hadn't seen it before. He seems to be genuinely concerned about the deer and elk in our state. I know of only one other like him. I have talked with Dan on the phone before and he seems like a strait guy, I'm glad he's the one that runs the unit I live in. I know some other wardens, that I as well as many others, would like to meet when they're off the clock and have a little talk if you know what I mean. Josh

Keith, I'd say that when someone comes to hunt lions in the earliest part of the year, Jan-April, then they've got that current year's license. We try to push them to apply and most of the time they do but most of the time they don't get drawn either. For some reason out of staters aren't really interested in hunting Coues with a bow either. At least that's my experience anyway, we just can't get any archery deer hunters to save our tails. We get bear hunters and lion hunters but archery deer just isn't a huge thing unless you're from AZ. Well I guess there is a big pull for archery deer north of the CO river. Az4life, I agree with you. Where did the G&F get their data? I appreciate their optimism but the calf elk haven't even dropped yet and the fawns won't hit the ground till August. The only thing they should've done is dropped most deer tags again and waited till next year to get their elk/deer census. Aside from Coues deer, the muleys up in the 12 units got freakin HAMMERED last year cause of the early snow. They had 3 hunts up there last year and they just mowed them down. Do they think the deer will just miraculously bounce back after a slaughter like they received last fall? Of course they will, according to the G&F. Or rather, in all actuality, they don't even care. ...more tags=more revenue. The more degrees a person has the less common sense they have. I'm done now, Josh

Man!! What a mess. I say plow thru her land and make her keep it open, with FORCE! I've been thru there many times and that little old lady running that gas station and lodge is a saint. Now shes having to suffer cause of some lady whose son has been toyed with and then turned around and toyed someone else's kid?!?!?!? OH THE MADDNESS!! Shoot that worthless son of hers, like Keith said, that's letting him off the hook to easy. Where in the world did people get off not taking responsibility for thier own actions? The PC'ers of this world is making us rot from the inside out!! Kill em all and let God sort 'em out!! JVS, if they can build a road thru Oak Creek Canyon they can build a road around Klondyke. Hope you wacked a couple dogs. Josh

I spent nearly all day on Stehr Lake a couple days ago and my neighbor and I couldn't figure out what the crap the bass were biting on. I did catch 3 on 4" watermelon lizzards but for 5 hours of fishing I considered it slow. My friend didn't catch diddly. Didn't try spinners to much as they tend to get caught up in the cattails. Worms eh? Seems a little like trout fishing to me. Josh