308Nut

I've personally never have seen any improvement in accuracy neck sizing only versus FL sizing. Depending on the chamber dimensions, I might neck size only simply to save the life of the brass and to get a specified neck tension without the use of an expander ball. Expander balls are from the devil. They often cause the necks to become misaligned. The less the brass is worked, the less it gets work hardened and the less they stretch. Both of which are bad. when they get work hardened they can be annealed but that can be difficult to do right. When they stretch in the chamber and then get pushed back by the die, the case head gets thinner and after a few firings they seperate. For larger factory chambers I try to neck size most of the time. All my custom barrels have as small a chamber as possible with '0' head space and tight 'no turn' necks. The necks only expand .001-.002" and the shoulder area expands .001" as well. The head doesn't expand and the shoulder actually gets set .0005" back from factory after the first firing. Since they don't expand much, I run them through a bushing neck sizer/FL combination die. This allows me to use a given bushing for a given neck tension and FL size the case in one shot versus using a body die for FL and seperate neck die which is what I have done in the recent past but I like the combo die better. This ensures flawless feeding with extremely long brass life. ALL of the rounds I take hunting are either fire formed and FL sized or virgin. I never hunt with neck sized only loads.

You can have a great experience with the worst of bullets and you can have a horrible experience with the very best of them. As far as bergers, I have limited experience with them as far as killing game with them but what I have seen was promising. At least on smaller big game such as deer, sheep and lope.

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No exit on the 150 eh? Was there a recovery of the bullet? Great shooting!

I have an older 700 short action BDL floor plate assembly. I have the box and bottom metal. I'm not sure if I have the action screws or not. Its off one of my 308s. It's not pretty. It's scratched up and has worn paint etc... But the price is right. It's free if you want it. PM with an address and I'll get it to you. M

Would you part with just the recoil lug w/o the barrel? If so, consider it sold.

I don't consider the 3006 to be an old fashioned round. With the constantly changing, by changing I mean improving components the 06 can do things today that were a pipe dream 25 years ago. A well put together rifle with the right powder and bullet will handle deer to a grand plus with ease. The components we have today modernize it very well IMHO. Hunting means different things to different people and their choices of weapon styles and calibers reflect that. Some guys draw a muzzleloader elk tag and use an inline, sabots, scopes, smokeless powder ect... Others use more traditional types with round lead balls and patches while dressing up in buckskin outfits. Nothing wrong with either. One may be about the odds of success and another about nostalgia. If it makes you happy, is legal then by all means do what you please.

Score on this buck = non essential Character on this buck = EVERYTHING!!!

Don't forget to lower you charges a hair until you know if its a 'hotter' lot or not in relation to your last lot.

Pine donkey nailed it. Shoulders are getting bumped too far. A new peice of brass can do the same if you ram the shoulder back far enough. Even if the headspace is well within spec. Back off the die so you just bump the shoulder. Setting it back .001 ok, .01+ not ok.

If he's in elk, he just needs to be patient. Wind patterns in AZ suck period. That's just the way the cookie crumbles. It's probably a blessing that he can't bugle. While exciting and fun, it often doesn't do a hunter any favors. I've elk hunted Arizona 3 times (I'm from Alaska too), all rut hunts, 2 archery, 1 muzzle loader. I shot 1 bull each time. ALL of them were ambushed on water or a major trail. One was near the last day and 2 were on the last day. He needs to calm down, take all the info and experience he has gathered during his hunt so far and figure out how to ambush one. If he knows where there is a good quiet water source, he should be sitting it from sun up to sun down. Elk can come in at 6am or 7pm or 1:13 in the afternoon. They often come in mid day. It's hard to be still that long but if he really wants one, that maybe what he'll have to do. If he wants to have a blast, he should chase bugles. If he wants to kill an elk, he should sit where there is a supply of what a rutting bull needs. Water. It is different when a hunter knows an area, knows how the elk move and react etc... Those guys can chase bulls and call and whatever. Since your dad doesn't have that experience in that area, he needs to resort to more traditional methods. Right now it sounds like he needs some encouragement. 1: It's not if but when. 2: Persistence pays. 3: Sometimes all you need is just a little more effort. Let us know how he finishes. M

+1 ^^^^^^^

^^^^^^^^ Very sound info.

In not going to get into a pissing match over 139 pounds or 200 pounds...readers here can look up velocity potentials, BCs, etc...and run numbers. As far as whether or not the added recoil is worth it or not, well that's up to the original poster to decide. Nether of our opinions on that matter here.

Litz changes his mind on BCs like we change underwear. The first time he tested it he said it was higher than the published value. Kind of like the first time he tested the 338 300 grain. Anyway, the 162 still kicks a$$ no matter what magnifying glass you put it under. They expand at much lower velocity too for the long range enthusiasts and of course, makes a bigger hole. Comparing the 168 VLD versus the 140 VLD (6.5) is a 200'# difference at a grand. This could still be desirable when elk are targeted. But yes, all things considered, they're very close in performance.

The 6.5 will kick you less, the 280 will hit game harder. It's up to you which one is more important to YOU. One will be more important to the next guy and vice versa. This is about you. The 162 Amax is a phenomenal performer on deer size critters and has a higher BC than the 6.5 Berger 140. This can also be fired a little faster. A bit less drift, a bit more energy but also....you guessed it, a bit more shoulder thump. The 140 grain variety in the 284 caliber have lower sectional densities and BCs so if you're sticking to 140s, the 6.5 could be a better choice. The 284 168 grain bullets can be shot every bit as fast in the 280 as the 140s in the 6.5 swede and with a bit more ease. IMO, a little more lead goes a long way on elk. If you throw elk in the mix, this could be a plus. That said, a 6.5 140grain partition or ACCUBOND works well on bigger game. My hunting buddy has used the 140 partitions on moose, black bears and cow elk with excellent results with his 6.5 swede. We used a 140 ACCUBOND on his dall ram this year with my 6.5x284 and we were both very pleased with the results. Destroyed lungs, a dime size exit hole and no copper or lead fragments and a VERY quick clean kill. I usually use 140 VLDs for sheep but I carry ACCUBONDs for bears. He didn't have time to swap bullets so he chambered an ACCUBOND. Let us know what you decide. M

All, I have been dreaming about taking an antelope for over 30 years. On the 22nd, I was able to bring this dream to fruition. He isn't the longest or heaviest buck by any stretch of the imagination but when I saw that he was a solid representation of the species, I had to get my first lope under my belt.

Nice. Do you have a 208 Amax set aside with his name on it? I know pics are deceiving but 85"-90"or so?

Getting into reloading would open a lot of possibilities for you. There are some great 'lighter recoiling' cartridges out there that will do what you ask. 284 win or 280AI or 6.5x284 are great choices but only really shine their best with hand loads. There just isn't enough selection for these commercially available. If you want to stick with factory ammo and have a good selection to choose from, the 308 gets my vote. You can get factory loads in nearly any configuration. From 125 ballistic tips to 210VLD's and anything in between. Soft point, polymer tipped, hollow point, bonded, solids, boat tail etc...With that in mind, the 308 also shines its brightest with hand loads. For up to 500 yards, the 308 will handle any Arizona game with ease. Recoil is manageable as well. At elk altitude you can easily exceed 1600'pounds of energy at the 500 yard mark with enough velocity for expansion. Even with 22" barrels which helps you keep it light and compact.

Light enough to pack in the mountains and manageable recoil mean different things to different people. Are you 20 or 65? Have you had shoulder or neck injuries? What is your max range for elk and bears?

Wow. Very cool! M

We flew out on the 2nd and killed in the 3rd. Flew out on the 6th. Yes we used 40 mile air in Tok.

Excellent stock and caliber. You'll have a lot of fun with that. M

Well.....Its a long story. I'll try and keep it short. I'll start by stating that the barrel used on this rifle is a 'hummer'. It is absolutely accurate. Even with multiple powders, primers and bullets. It was at first fitted to a short action modified to use a Wyatt extended box magazine. While this was very adequate, it came time to cut an inch off the breach end. The throat was gone and the first inch or so was very heat checked/cracked. Consistency was starting to suffer. I had a spare Remington 700 long action sitting in the safe so I had the barrel pulled off of the short action where I converted it back to a 308 Win and had the 6.5mm barrel set back an inch, muzzle cut 1/4" and fitted to my long action. Then I pillar bedded it into a McMillan A3 stock in GAP camo. Secs: Rem 700 LA stainless Jewel trigger (8oz.) Badger bolt knob Sako style extractor Lightweight firing pin assembly Seekins 20 MOA AL one piece rail Nighforce UL rings Leupold Mark4 16x Factory recoil lug Lilja 3 groove stainless barrel. Sendero contour. Fluted. 8 twist. Currently 26" (started at 27.25"), Crown cut by me! (Razor sharp) Chambered in 6.5x284 Norma Harris Bi-pod Side mounted ACI United States Optics rail mounted level Load: Lapua Brass Rem 9-1/2 primer 52.5 H4831SC Berger 140 VLD .003" Neck tension .002" Jump 2893 FPS (corrected to the muzzle, not at the chronograph) at 88'ASL and 60 degrees F. 300 yard zero 1/2MOA on a bad day at zero range .75MOA on a REALLY bad day at zero .2-.3 most days at zero .05-.15 MOA on the best days at zero Her name is Cassie

All rutting undulates piss on themselves. That's not what makes them nasty unless you roll meat around on a nasty hide soaked in piss. What makes caribou nasty is that they eat all the dirt that cows have pissed on and drink piss puddles. They are not edible during this time Kodiak island blacktail hunting is A LOT of fun if done in late October/early November when they rut. Both types of hunting are great but if I had the choice, Id go Kodiak. Mature bucks are beautiful. Theyre like a cross between a coues buck and a mature mulie buck.