308Nut

I would have to say the "strangest" thing I have ever seen was in 2004 on my archery elk hunt. I was sitting in a tree stand over a natural water hole in a canyon. I would occasionally hear a "fake" bugle behind me on the edge of this canyon. It was moving from my left to right. After a while, just about the end of legal shooting light, off to my right I heard a cry. It almost sounded like someone stuck an arrow into a coyote. The cry would come and go while it was slowly getting closer. As it got closer, I recocnized that it was a crying and screeming toddler. After a minute or two, 2 guys, both with bows, one of which was pushing a stroller with 3 large wheels with a screaming toddler in it. They walked right past my tree stand never knowing I was there rolling it over rocks and picking it up and over dead falls. Bizzare thing to see on a bowhunt. The next "strangest" thing was while glassing for deer around a spring in unit 21 about 16 years ago. It was pre season and I was scouting. I heard a truck park off in the distance and people get out while chatting. 4 guys walked up a trail and broke off the trail and headed in to the desert. At least one had a rifle. They were doing nothing to be quiet and it appeared that they could have been at least somewhat intoxicated. A few minutes after they dissapeared around a canyon bend I heard a gun shot. Moments later all the men where hastily working back towards where they had come from, got in their truck and left. I have no idea what went down. Other than that I could write a book on "cool" outdoor encounters with wildlife and other finds. It is easy to do living and hunting up here.

About 30 sec.....after I opened the picture to its max size.

Sorry. I prefer bigger bullets than what the .284 offers. If I were a more dedicated match shooter, I would use a 6.5 or 6mm. From a long range hunting standpoint, I will take the 308 over the .284 every time. There just are not enough benefits to using the 7mm-08 over the 308 to make me switch. In fact respecting exterior ballistics, neither makes either inferior contrary to poular belief, espescially at hunting ranges suitable for these calibers. That said, I will opt to utilize a slightly bigger hole and more mass upon impact. Since I am a 1/2 hearted match shooter, I use the same caliber for matches as for hunting. I can nail down a 200/200 at 600 yards without much trouble with the 308 even with modest wind. With results like that and a bigger hole in the critter, I see no need to go any smaller. Now for a bigger cartridge such a a 7mm RSAUM or WSM, I am very interested in those for a 1000 yard sheep rifle. I can see the benefits to using a .284 bullet in these bigger cases. By using a 168 or 180 berger coupled with the good velocities these cases offer, it is actually usefull. To use the 168 or 180 in the 708 case doest afford much range due to expansion/minimum velocity impact requirements. With the bigger cases, it is much less a concern. Not sure why I would be richer using a 284. I think I would go through barrels a bit faster using the smaller bore. In this sense, I am richer for using a 308!? I am glad you take my thoughts with a grain of salt. I know I can be very rough around the collar! At least I come by it honestly.

I am one such nut. The only reason I am currently using an 11 versus an 11.25 is due to timing. I needed a barrel NOW and I couldnt get an 11.25 now. I was able to get an 11 now so that is what I replaced my old barrel with. I have used 11.25 on 2 hunting rifles and a match rifle. For the 30 cal, I believe it to be one of if not the most versitle twist available. The best groups and scores I have ever shot were with the 11.25x. Maybe it is because I have fired more rounds with the 11.25 than any other who knows. FWIW, many a BR guy has shot the 168's with a 14x barrel. The 12x will handle much more than just the 168's.

My advice is use a range finder and forget about how laser like your trajectory is or isnt. Learn your drops and compensate accordingly. Bullets with higher BC's ussually drop a bit more due to a heavier weight and lower velocity, hence your quest for a lighter one. However higher BC bullets drift less in the wind even at the lower velocities. The wind is harder to figure than the drop. Drops are easy to overcome. Windage can make you look like a fool. It is better to have as many advantages as you can have for doping the wind. If you want nothing more than a laser line trajectory cause it sounds cool, the 270 is the wrong choice to begin with. Use a flatter cartridge. Just my .02

Believe it. They can be that bad. I have had the chance to borescope several factory barrels and several custom barrels. I will admit the one in the video was unique with the flattend land. I dont think that is very common. The tooling marks, scratches, rough edges and the crosswise tooling are all very common in factory barrels. It doesnt meen they cant or wont shoot decent you just wont get bench rest or in many cases match accuracy out of them. They will also typically foul faster and to more of a degree than a good custom bore. Most factory barrels will hold a minute of angle accuracy or at least close to it. This is why there is a big price difference between a factory rifle and a custom rifle. High production versus high quality.

I wouldnt say you wasted any money. 11x is a good all around and probably the most versitle twist in 30 cal. It may not be the most optimum for 165's but it will work fine. I have even used the 11x for 150's and 155's. Again, not the most optimum but still yields good results. Let us know how the rifle turns out.

11x works ok with 165's but isnt optimum, unless they are solid copper, even then its a tad fast for optimum performance. 11x is more optimum with 190-210 grain pills. 12-13x is a better choice if 165's are all that are being used. Green hill stability methods are dead. I would be looking at the Lilja chart. http://www.riflebarrels.com/products/caliber_twist_rates.htm They are a bit conservative but close. Berger bullets is also a good resource for twist needs. If you want to find the optimum twist for a given bullet, there are various computer applications to find the optimum stability factor for a given bullet. IMHO, this is the best method. They have proven true time and time again. You also have to remember that when you add the word cannon such as the 30-378 or 308 warbird, despite using even the heaviest bullets, optimum stability is acheived by going a bit slower NOT faster. Faster twists only takes away from potential accuracy, adds more spin drift on the long shots and in extreeme cases, lowers the BC of the projectiles. Spin the bullet optimally for the best long range results. Notice I said best results. Certainly you can acheive good results from a 2.0+ stability factor but 1.4-1.6 offers a wee bit better overall package. The added velocities of these cannons increases the stability factor versus a slower cartridge shooting the same bullets with the same twist.

If you are refering of a factory rifle that utilizes an 8x barrel I would love to hear some references. The only places to get 8x 30 cal barrels is from a custom barrel manufacturer. Yes they make them. They are also extreemly rare. The only guys that use them are either straight up idiots or guys that use very heavy solid copper bullets such as the ultra long 177 GS bullets or other custom all copper ultra long prjectiles. There just isnt much of a demand for an 8x 30 cal barrel these days. Catclaw hit the nail on the head. When we didnt have laser RF's, the flatter the trajectory the better. Now that we have lasers, who cares. More BC and higher sectional densities offer more reliable terminal performance.

I dont agree that the situation sucks. Deer dont live forever. His passing is a natural occurance. He is or was not the only good buck in the neighborhood. Whether it is the same buck or not shouldnt concern you that much. Big old bucks die of old age or predation if they dont get harvested. If you harvested every 6 year old buck in the state, there are 5 year old bucks taking their place the next year. There is more than that old goat out there. $10.00 says you will see more nice bucks this January IF you get out there and look for them. That buck was there for a reason, other bucks WILL follow in his footsteps. Look at this as an opprotunity to find an even better buck as I assure you there are better ones out there, albiet he is nothing to sneeze at. Dont worry or complain, be positive and look forward to the future that holds even better bucks for you.

I finally got the magical phone call today. Your sheep is finished. WooHoo! Below is the ram I harvested in 08. I have always wanted a double broomed (broken from fighting) and last year I was blessed to get this one. A couple from in the field The glacier that broomsticks lived next to Below are my 3 best rams. I have 4 mounts total. My 07 ram My 03 ram which is my largest and hardest earned. 38" x 14.5"

BC's and sectional density are too low when they are of the 308 diameter at 125 grains. They work good to a point then run out of steam. FWIW, 270, you do not need an 8 twist for ANY production 30 cal bullet. Not even the 240 grain. A 10x in a 300 mag will handle the 240 with ease. Sierra says 9 but that is for the slower 30 cals. The 220's can be shot with 11 twists flawlessly.

My .02 cents is that the December hunts offer 2 things. 1: Less hunters in the field. This equals a quality experiance and solitude. 2: Other than July, the end of December is truely the best chance you have to see a really big buck out in the open during daylight hours while you can legally have a rifle in your hands with the intent to shoot him. Yes a week or two into January may be better but you cannot legally shoot a bullet at one of these big boys unless you have the AZBGSR tag or other conservation type permit in your pocket. Over-rated? Probably. Better than an October tag? Absolutely. Besides, rutting activity is facinating to watch. Nobody argues about how great an early rifle elk hunt is versus a November hunt. Despite the fact that elk bugle and deer dont doesnt negate the fact that rutting activity is fun, cool and CAN lead to success on bigger bucks with a cool looking swollen neck and polished set of gnarley horns. THAT is what dreams are made of. Besides, I have no desire to travel all the way down from AK to suffer in swelltering heat to hunt deer with 700 other red necks when most of the really big bucks know how to avoid us with no need to come out of their hidding hole without the scent of nookie tantalizing them. Come December, those buck dont have half the conscience they normally do. Rut hunts of any species are fun. Period. Regards!

The way I always understood it was if it is a WT (of any variety) you count ALL the points. The one pictured is an 8 point. If it is a mulie, 4x4 with or without eyeguards, it is a "4 point". If it is a 4x5 with or with out eyeguards, it is a 4x5. If it is one of those huge hogs with lots of points (regardless of breed), then its a toad, mutant, pre-historic, cactus buck, hog, pig, stud buck, jurassic, gi-normus, booner, a wow, or just a plain old whopper. With eye gurds then its with cheese.

More game for the rest of you!!! That almighty 270 didnt get you that sheep tag...... I guess I forgot how those 7-08 bullets just bounce right off of those big bucks leaving them for the 270 huggers to clean up........................THATS WHAT I AM DOING WRONG!!!!!!!!!! Thanks for settin' me straight there Lark. BTW is that short for mularkey?

Yes. I leave Friday after work. Season opens on the 10th. I flew the area yesterday and saw a good bunch of rams. I dont know if I will get one this trip or even this year. I promised a friend who has never harvested one he could have first crack. I think the one we are after is legal. We need to scrutinize him more closely though.

My specs were: 90.0 RL-25 under the 180 AB. Velocity was 3300 FPS. COAL was 3.700" Federal 215 match primers. Remington cases. These specs will yield quite a bit less velocity in your factory rifle. You will need more powder. My barrel was a custom "tight neck" and benchrest chamber which yeild MUCH higher pressures than a factory barrel. This is why I was getting so high a velocity with so little powder. Max book charges would blow my barrel in half. I was also using 93.0 H50BMG under the 208 AMAX at 3.700, getting 2975 FPS and consistent .25 MOA accuracy. H50 may be a bit slow for a factory rifle.

Dont over look the 208 AMAX. IMHO it is a better deer bullet and has a higher BC than the 210 Berger. It is publilshed at .649. I have tested it out of my 300 RUM at .671 which is even better.

I think it is the widowmaker. Seriously OUCH! Kills on one end cripples on the other. Cant tell which end.

Defensive edge makes a 10 pound version which is more managable for hunting.

The 1000 yard hunters are using these. The 1K match shooters are not. It is simple as to why they are not. They dont allow muzzle breaks in competition. It is called recoil fatique. That is why 6.5's are som popular among match shooters. It is the best balance between recoil, velocity and good BC's.

Thanks RR. When you factor the "paper ballistics" together with the tuneability and rediculous accuracy and a decent barrel/throat life this round offers, it starts to make sense. My only complaint (if you want to call it that) is that it generates a bit more recoil than I am used to but it is managable. Also my Edge weighs in at 12.5 pounds scoped. Most Edges out there are 15-16 pounds. This eliminates quite a bit of the recoil.

I have used the 300 RUM extensively and VV powder extensively. Just not together. My experience with the VV powders is very positive. The Finn's make reloading products with EXTREME precision and consistency. My best loads in a 2 different 300's was RL-25 and the 180 ACCUBONDS.

The bottom line is that if you want something specifec, you work with a reputable smith. You will get exactly what you want/need. I personally dont trust any package companies out there. Way over priced, and many lack real performance. They may have super high velocity and all that appeals to gun nuts but for real long range practical results many can leave you in want. I get the sense that you know what you want to accomplish but dont know what you want in a rifle other than the end result. We still need to know if your target requirments are paper or flesh, how much you want to spend and how much weight or recoil you can tolerate. I will give it to you straight. If you want to learn how to shoot 800 yards and NOT be frustrated, look at the 308 Win. It is anything but sexy but it is such a user friendly cartridge it is sickening. You want a custom 308 that will shoot lights out? Call GA Precision. You can punch paper at a full 1000 yards+ with the 308 and with the right barrel/load, can ethically harvest some game to 800 yards. The 308 is my "goto" rifle and I hunt mostly in Alaska where the game is big and tempermental. It does just fine for me. Have harvested critters at nearly 800 yards with it. If you want a long range hammer like an 800-1200 yard+ elk rifle, call Shawn Carlock at Defensive Edge in Idaho and talk to him about a 338 Edge. These rifles, this caliber and results are absolutely mind boggling. I have been playing this long range game for 15 years and have never seen the results before that guys (including myself) are getting from this caliber now. Everybody wants a "magic" round. I believe that this is as good as it gets. 2000 pounds of energy at 1000 yards with 308 accuracy and single digit velocity extreme spreads and MUCH better barrel life than the 300 RUM. More energy, less drift and longer life. You cant beat that. I have personally shot a 1.5" group at 700 yards with this caliber. I know 2 other guys who have done the same. This system flat works. Take it from a guy who has spent more money than I should have ever been allowed to on rifles, barrels and shooting supplies. Call GA Precision for a 308 or Defensive Edge for a long range hammer. You can google either for FAST results. Either will shoot lights out at 800 yards. They both have a .5 or better MOA guarantee.

The only dis-advantage to the 300 RUM is they eat throats faster than hungry pirana's eat a swimming pig. This isnt a problem for guys who shoot VERY little. For guys that like to shoot often, this can be detrimental to consistency, eventually accuracy and definately the pocket book.