.270

rest in peace. didn't know him, but if he was a dog man, he was ok. Lark.

his face ain't blacked out. that's just bullwidgeon after 2 days of not shavin'. Lark.

anyone that can read knows that lead isn't a good thing to have in you. it can cause real severe health problems to any animal. up to and including death. i don't have any doubt that some condors have experieinced lead poisoning. i do doubt that bullets are the cause, and flat out call anyone who goes along with the usfws and the other hugger groups that are behind these suits, liars. lead is everywhere. prove it comes from bullets and prove they weren't planted. i read some of the report that was put on this thread. lab simulations are usually slanted to get slanted results. so you fed some buzzards bb sized lead. conitnually. for days. they got lead poisoning. duh? now go chunk one bullet out in the countryside and see if a condor finds it. that's the kind of odds we're talking about. i'd have to bet that at least 50% of bullets stay in the deer somewhere. another good bunch of em pass through and land who knows where. very dang few stay in the guts. very few. guts ain't a good bullet trap. now figure the percentages and tell me how a few bullets are causing all this. the odds are real low. now how much lead is in the condor environment from other sources? paint, exhaust, trash, naturally, etc. where's the most possibility for exposure? it may be an extreme view, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are intentionally putting lead in their food in order to further their cause. sort of a condor/munchausen syndrome. these jokers have phonied up every study they've ever done and have been caught at it so many times they shouldn't have any credibility with anyone with a brain and dang sure not with an outdoorsman. Lark.

nrs, spit out the koolaid dude. i've had a chunk of lead in my shoulder for decades. why don't i have lead poisoning? and there are thousands of folks out there with more lead in em than me. lead is dangerous. all heavy metals are. but it has to be in almost a molecular form to be dangerous. go swallow a bullet. it'll hit the toilet water tomorrow and you'll be ok. birds are a little different because of their gizzard that grinds up their food and if a bullet gets lodged in their gizzard it could be hard on a condor. and a condor ain't gonna let a bullet stay in it's gizzard. ever dress a turkey gizzard, or any other bird. only thing in it are very small rocks, just a little larger than sand. they don't put big rocks, the size of bullets in their gizzard. they are simply too big. but condors do? i don't think so. there is lead everywhere. and all the sudden it only affects condors and it only comes from bullets? i don't buy it. in fact, i think it is a lie and the folks that are perpetrating it know it's a lie, and not only is it a lie, it is a lie that has been conspired. but it's the most convenient thing they have now to further the koolaid drinkin' phylosiphy. don't bite on this guys. there's a lot more to it than a few bullets in gut piles. these glorified buzzards probably are dieing of lead poisoning, but i'm thinking it is coming from somewhere else and that somewhere probably originates from the same outfits that are behind the ban and they are looking for a place to lay the blame, other than themselves. i shot a deer the other day. i didn't gut shoot it and the bullet went all the way through it. i suspect this is the case with almost every deer or elk killed in condor country. the bullet passes through or stays in the meat somewhere. but all the sudden the very few bullets that do stay in the gutpile are killing the condors? better look at roadkill and the paint in the parks and a few other places. sorry, i don't buy it. only way a bullet is dangerous to anything is when it is fired out of a gun. Lark.

maybe bullwidgeon can finally get a girlfriend. how much is airfare to this place? we can get a pool and send him down there. he'll hafta learn spanish tho. i doubt the talkin' javelinas down there speak 'merican...............Lark.

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/1030jag.html trust me, this will be a real sore subject before it's over. there are a couple guys involved in this that you can thank for the limited lion season in Az. too. don't drink the koolaid guys. Lark.

i see remington makes a new rifle called a 798. has a mauser 98 action in it. or a reasonable facsimile. has anyone seen one? i looked on the net and it looks like a sporterized 98 action. i was wondering if they are surplus actions or if they are a copy? they don't have the military safety and i assume they don't have that horrible long pull military trigger. i wonder if you can drop a round in the barrel and close the action? on the old mausers, you can't. only way to put one in the barrel was from the magazine. anyway, looks like an interesting rifle. about time remington made a rifle with a decent extractor. that mauser claw will pull anything outta the barrel. don't know what the price is either. but i'm sure i'm gonna hafta look real hard at one. not a bad lookin' rifle fer sure. Lark.

poor condors. i wonder if it is being backed by barnes? seriously, the forest circus and national park circus painted everything they could for 50 years with lead paint. all the steel they had anywhere. handrails, dumpsters, everything. all they did was paint over it with non-lead paint. the lead is still there. cars dump lead out the tailpipe, and yes, even the ones running unleaded fuel have lead in the emmissions. motor oil has lead in it. and all the dead carcasses of roadkill get contaminated with it. so do all the plants along the road. back east, it was common practice for years to cut and bale the grass along the highways and in the medians and sell it to feedlots. until somebody found out the lead content in the grass was sky high. there is lead everywhere. there is lead everywhere the condors live, and it ain't bullets, but now it's all the fault of hunter's and their gutpiles. it's just a convenient arguement and when you have guys willing to go along with it without questioning it, it's dangerous. there was a lot of discussion about this a couple weeks ago and from what i read, most guys on this site were all for the bullet ban. don't drink the koolaid. make em clean all the other lead up. make em prove where it comes from. make em tell the truth. realistically, bullets don't even come into the equation. there just ain't that much exposure to em. and if it follows suit with the recent california legislation, they even banned copper bullets, because they are supposed to have lead traces in them. lead is everywhere. it's a naturally occuring metal and it has been used as an additive in countless things for decades. now all the sudden the few gutpiles found by the condors are all superfund sites? KMA!!! even if a better substitute for lead that was edible and made condors healthy were discovered, it would be outlawed. again, don't drink the koolaid. it's all part of the big plan to outlaw hunting. and anyone that lines up with these lead ban leaders ain't your friend. this ain't a joke. it is real and it is here. Lark.

ain't browning and winchester sorta the same outfit now? i see a lot of winchester advertising on the browning tv show and stuff. whatever, if the guns are 'spensive it might be because they're worth it. i don't understand the new trigger tho. i love the model 70 trigger. you can adjust the heck out of it. i mean ya gotta know what you're doin', but ain't that true with everthing? i'm excited to see it. on a little different note, has anyone seen one of the new TC icons? that's an interesting looking rifle too. also, i ain't never seen a gun i didn't want. 'cept them stupid 7mm/08's. Lark.

now there's some good news. Lark.

dark clothes, stay in the shadows when you can. camo is ok. but once an animal sees you, it doesn't matter what you have on, you're busted. trick is to see them first. i like to go to booga reds during the late bull hunt and see all the flatlanders sittin' in there with their brand new camo on. head to toe. new boots. little leaves flutterin'. a real fashion statement. Lark.

shutup and go practice the banjo. i heard they are gonna re-make deliverance and they want you to be the banjo kid. Lark.

meat loss is determined by well you care for your animal. Lark.

7mm's are for girls. Lark.

hey, i dont' even have a .338. i've seen a couple elk shot with em. lungshots dropped in their tracks. one was over 400 yards too. they hit pretty hard and make a big hole. i imagine if you hit an animal and it don't go right down, that big ol' hole will whistle when it runs. i've seen a couple elk run off after lungshots with a .338/.378. but he was usin' them stinkin' barnes "condor lover" bullets. Lark.

i shot a stink pig with a .45/90. i think you got me beat for overkill. i shot a .460 twice. only reason i fired the second shot is because i didn't believe it kicked that hard the first time. the second shot convinced me it did. i saw a guy kill a big 6x6 bull with a .378. dropped it in it's tracks with a shoulder shot and the bullet through and killed a cow about 100 yards on the other side of it. i left then. i guess if a guy was gonna shoot man eating rabid kodiaks on steroids, he might have use for one of the big weatherby's in north America. but only then. i have a friend who carries a cut down model 70 .458 when he guides kodiak hunters. it's his wounded bear gun. big guns and big bullets should be for big animals. i'd like to have a .375, but i want an alaskan. Lark.

so packhorse, then you're bringin' your kid up to be unethical? i think i'm gonna get a .460 weatherby for the next time i hunt coues. never can tell when ya might run into a rhino. Lark.

bullwidgeon says i'm 8 feet tall but really i'm so short that i can't drive a lifted truck without a rope ladder that comes out when ya open the door so i get jealous o' all these guys with the jacked up diesels. i even ride a shetland. i still have lotsa hair, but most of it is on my ears. and i really, really like a .300 mag. but it ain't unethical to shoot a coues with a .243. like some guy said it was. Lark.

don't want them lions gettin' hard arteries from eatin' fat folks. Lark.

so you expect me to back off because you say so? i own more .300's than you can count. have over 500 rounds loaded, right now. and i can shoot the heck out of em. 'bout wore my shoulder out a week ago with one that won't hit right. but i don't need one to shoot a coues deer. if you do, that's ok. probly makin' up for a lack of hair or height of some other deal that some guys can't deal with. but that's fine. don't let me sway you into doing something unethical, like using a .243. or any other gun that you don't like. so, how big o' lift do have on your truck anyway? Lark.

i guess if a guy has to have a .300 mag to shoot an 80 pound deer it says a lot about the guy. he's just being ethical. my grandad and his brother killed a grizzly, in Az. too, with a .22 singleshot. guess they were unethical. but hey, if a guy ain't got enough confidence in himself, i guess he's gotta jack it up with somethin'. Lark.

yeah, i sorta got carried away with testosterone too. i 'pologize. we need to all hang together on the big picture and try to not do things that ain't helpfull to the sport. but still stick together. there's lotsa folks that hate us. some that like us and some don't care. the latter 2 are the ones we need to keep where they are. later, Lark.

'zakly. most folks who don't hunt, don't have a problem with folks that do. shoot a deer in their yard, and they probly will. Lark.

rose colored glasses? you need to look up the definition for that one. yeah, i'm rude and crude. so what? if you head out with a 1/2 miles gun, you're only looking to get within a halfmile. and i don't think that is a good thing for the sport. the goal should be to have a succesfull hunt. not a good shoot. you say you've made at 410 yards. i've made em at near 700 on deer. further on coyotes. bull elk at 6 with my bow. no range finder either, just kentucky windage. i'll do whatever it takes. but my goal is to hunt. not snipe. this original post was about comparing a few rounds and some guys decided that they had to add a buncha nonsense about a .243 not being a good choice for couse deer. not enough knockdown. won't buck the wind. and i took exception to it. and i'll say it again. i can kill anything with a .243. or my ol' .270. i love seeing how far away i can hit stuff. my kids have rangefinders and stuff and i tinker with em from time to time. never carry one. i have a real good set off glass. good scopes. fine rifles. i love all guns. but again, i think a guy oughta hunt. not just shoot. i really enjoy seeing folks hunt. even if they're in my way. because it's good for the sport and i know how much i enjoy it. but hunting should be a personall thing between you and your prey. not a long range snipefest that takes 40 pounds of gear and electronic technology. Lark.

just like i mentioned about alpine. it isn't an incorporated town and there are elk all over the place and guys got completely ignernt about shooting animals around houses and stuff. so now, you can't hunt anywhere that they call alpine valley. whatever that is. people should have been smart enough to not do what they were doing, but instead had to be dumb until they made a law. i hafta sorta agree with donnie, some. i don't want anyone to tell me what i can or can't do. and if they tell me i can't do something that is legal, well i really don't like that. but at the same time a guy has to have enough sense to know when he's not doing anyone any good. i used to work with a guy that was raised in LA. he started hunting in the 60's. went every year faithfully and never shot anything. he wanted to get a deer so bad it hurt. after about 7 or 8 years or so, he was headed back after a fruitless hunt and some folks were feeding a buck marshmallows on the side of the road. it was in a place legal to shoot a deer. he had a tag. and he shooed all the kids away and blasted it. 100% legal. he was proud of it. got it mounted. not a thing anybody could do about it. legally. you think he did hunters any good? i don't think so. you think any of the kids that saw that grew up being prohunters? i kinda doubt it. just because something is legal, doesn't mean it's a good thing to do. i don't care if guys take photos of animals with blood everywhere and the toungue hanging out. screw em if they don't like it or are offended. i like to see racks in the back of trucks up for the world to see. if someone is offended, who cares? not me. but i think it ain't cool to shoot stuff in neighborhoods. legal or not. and there have been a couple of instances in the past few months that have really gave all hunters a black eye, just because some guys decided to be lazy. Lark.