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don't ever argue with crazy people. it's a waste o' time. remember the movie lonesome dove? gus and woodrow hung their ol' buddy jake. jake asked them why and gus said "you crossed the line jake". there is a line, and once you cross it, there is no coming back and no amount of good you did, before or after crossing the line. will make up for it. i'm thinking rep weirs has crossed the line. his condescending memo shows he has a lotta disdain and contempt for the folks that have supported him. at least with votes. it's apparant he will walk right over sportsmen in order to please a group that says they represent sportsmen and their lobbyist. it will be interesting to see how the next election turns out. be even more interesting to see what other kinda tricks we see from the folks involved in this tag grab too. oh well, i think i'll go huntin', while i still can without havin' to bid on a tag. Lark.

now there's a name i ain't heard in awhile. bob turned out to be quite a perv. as i recall the deal with the photos of the little girl who was murdered, eloy let him in to take the photos. whatever the deal was, it was about as disgusting a thing as i've ever heard of. i know a couple guys who won his award. one of em hunted with him some and wasn't at all impressed with his skill. Lark.

hey pbj, here's some sage advice for ya. when ya hit rock bottom, quit diggin'. i don't think you or your cronies have credibility with enough folks to get an antlered javelina auction tag. just let folks think you're dumb and quit provin' it. it was a scam and you lost. at least this round. and if you try it again, in an even sneakier way, which you will have to do in order for success, you'll pay a much heavier price than folks just disliking you. Lark.

in all honesty, i think there are too dang many groups. they all have similar, but uniquely different agendas and they all seem to contradict and fight with each other for control and authority. be best to tell em all to take a hike and have one big strong outfit to take care of sportsmen concerns. not just hunting and fishing, everything. hiking, trail ridiing, camping, birdwatching, everything. take a good look at the list red rabbit put up. we almost had that here, only worse. Lark.

pbj, wiers, the asfw (whatever it stands for really) can all say what they want. this was a scam to take tags from the rank and file and give them to guys that can hunt anywhere, anytime. while using conservation, the children, opening private land and making all the rural counties rich, as a smoke screen. i'm surprised they didn't add a cure for cancer in there with it. tell ya what, i'll sell ya the golden gate bridge for a discount and throw in some ocean front property in ajo. the only way 99.99% of us can ever hope to get a premium tag is through the draw. then we have to do all the hard work to be successful ourselves. the .01% lay down a buncha cash for tag, then hire some posse to sit on an animal until he wants to come out and shoot it. this sb2072 was a way to make it easier for the .01% to shoot as many trophy animals as they want to, while we sit around and wish we could get a permit. i agree with the sentiment that this ain't over. the backdoor didn't work so they're probly diggin' a tunnel now. Lark.

ok class, required reading for tonight is the list of tags red rabbit posted. this is what we have narrowly avoided here in Az, for now. i kinda think these guys will make another run at it. is anyone still a member of this asfw outfit? if you are, why? i mean other than pbj and wiers. Lark.

$4 million would benefit rural counties? how many rural counties we got? like all of em except maricopa and pima. 4 million to benefit em all. these guys don't realize that maybe they're dealing with folks that can actually think. Az has 15 counties. so subract the 2 big ones, and divide that into $4 million "projected" bucks. that's $307 grand and change per county. wow, that oughta really make like a .01% increase in everbuddies budget. heck, if one county got it all of it wouldn't make a buncha difference. these guys are used to dealing with a lotta bucks. they should know that their numbers don't make any difference to any county budget. and they are projected numbers that are always way smaller than they actually end up being. oh well, one thing for sure, rep wiers said a lot about how he feels about his constituents and this little memo says a lot about the real motive behind it all. too bad we're all to stupid to understand it. Lark.

i hafta agree. screw him. he isn't the only guy in his district that is qualified to be a rep and it sounds like about anyone would be better. why is it that only him, pbj and their cronies can see all the good it will do? while they can't see or understand wny 90% of the sportsmen are against it? where is the $22 million they said this would provide for conservation? i see a million for conservation, and a million and half for everything else. and $900 grand in increased revenue for the azgfd. where do they figure that taking 350 tags away is gonna increase their coffers? the rest is just tax revenue that wouldn't make enough difference in county budgets to even matter. $20 million divided up all over the state? what a joke. his little condescending memo make me a lot happier this thing got killed. this proves even more that it was just a tag grab for rich guys. smoke and mirrors and bull$h!t is all this is and i resent the h e l l outta these guys implying that me and my friends are too stupid to understand it. Lark.

probly nothin' a couple dozen auction tags can't fix. Lark.

Bill is even smarter than me. i agree with him. give me an elk tag and get outta the way. i'll find something to put it on. or better yet, give me a sheep tag. and if pbj and his buddies woulda got his way there woulda been less elk tags and the ones they took woulda been too expensive for anyone i know. i also think that we should have a geezer hunt. sorta like the youth hunt but you hafta be so old and live here so long, preferably a native, to get a tag. Lark.

who of a grads for sure. Lark.

the news today said that something like 46,000, that's fourty six thousand, folks have been killed in drug violence in mexico since 2006. 53,000 Americans died in vietnam. i think about 3000 have died in operation iraqi freedom, in iraq and afghanistan. i didn't look it up, but that what it seems like it was last i heard. i don't know why, but this really hit hard. there is an actual civil war going across the border from us. i mean war. not drug violence. war, combat, all that stuff. i knew the number was high but for some reason i've been sorta spacing it out i guess. this is nuts. and obama doesn't want us to enforce the border laws here? wierd. Lark.

pbj, the fact remains that you tried to take 350 of the very best big game permits Arizona has to offer, away from us po' folk, that are too stupid to understand your good intentions i might add, and basically hand them to folks who can afford anything. now there is proof you are associated with bear poachers? it just keeps getting better. once again, no conspiracy theory, it's a conspiracy fact. you guys conspired to take 350 of the best tags, that a state that doesn't have many tags to start with, has to offer. one thing about it, folks are gonna pay a lot more attention to things from now on, because you and your cronies have proved that you can't be trusted. now go away and plot your next scam. Lark.

a few years ago one of our former esteemed state legislators bought a piece of dirt behind the usery pass rifle range. that land was basically landlocked by private and public land. don't remember all the details, but he was trying to get access across the gun range to get to his place so he could develop it and they said no so he tried a couple other fast ones that also failed. besides, who would want to live downrange of a buncha guys shooting rifles? well, he retired and some of his buddy legislators as a retirement present put a little rider on some bill that basically shut down usery so he could put a road into his property. well anyway, it pissed a lotta folks off real bad it got kicked out real quick, sorta like sb2070. i can't remember what the real particulars were, but it was a really hot topic ther for awhile. but it's like the folks that buy a house next to a dairy and then complain about the smell. this guy wanted to build houses downrange of a rifle range, so naturally the rifle range, and all the service it provided had to go. anytime lawyers and law makers get involved things get screwed up real bad. Lark.

private land access has been an issue since biblical times. if one guy owns one acre somebody is gonna complain about it. Lark.

conspiracy theory? no theory PBJ. you and your buddies did conspire to take the cream right off the top of the tag bucket and let rich guys have em. no theory, you did it. plain and simple. it's a conspiracy fact. and your outfit has lost what credibility it had. with everyone. go away quietly and leave us alone. Lark.

i don't care where anyone spends their money, because it's their money. i kinda wince at some o' the stuff folks buy, but then they probly do at me too. by the same token, i don't care where folks don't spend their money either. if you're gonna be in business, you need to have your finger on the pulse of the folks that patronize your outfit. if you loose it, they may go someplace else. i don't think i've ever been to outdoorsmans or whatever it is. probly never will if it's in cave creek. i've been to alaska more times than i've been to cave creek. if it's the place i'm thinkin' of, i won't ever go there, but for other reasons. this whole deal has opened up a lotta folks eyes to what can happen if they aren't careful. i kinda think the folks pushing this deal are lucky it got leaked out and enough h e l l was raised that it got stopped. can you imagine what coulda happened if this became law? i think they dodged as big o' bullet as we did. everything has consequences. a guy needs to think about the consequences an action may cause as much as what the benefit may be. are the consequences gonna be worth the benefit? Lark.

i look at private land a little differently. you guys mostly are refering to "vehicle" access across private property being denied as a problem. go around. walk in, ride a mule. h e l l, parachute if you want to. when you get there you won't have much competition either, because the other guys are out there trying to find a way to drive in. if you want to hunt a place bad enough, you can almost always find a way to do it. private land is just that, private. if the landowner won't let you cross it, that's just the way it is. it is their prerogative. there has been some real good work done to get folks to allow sportsmen to cross private land. i can think of one place where the landowner flat out got raped by a warden years ago. but he now allows people across his place. somebody had to do some real sweet talkin' to get that to happen. compared to most other states, Az does not have a private land access problem. some of the checkerboard stuff is a pain and i don't know if the rules have ever been completely figured out there. but in the vast majority of cases, if there is a vehicle access problem across private land, if you want to work a little, you can go around find a way in. and as far as a road across someone's private property, if they built the road, it doesn't really matter, it's their road. if the road was built with public funds or is maintained with public funds, that's a different story. they probably can't legally lock it. the gate way down aravaipa canyon a few years ago is a prime example. i think graham county was quite timid in dealing with her, but eventually they won and opened it back up. it helped that she got busted for counterfitting and some other stuff, too. private land can be a nuisance, but pissin' off the landowner ain't gonna do anyone any good. in a lot of states, leased state land can be locked up just like private land. Az ain't that way. you can hunt state land with little problem. sometimes vehicle access is denied, but you can still walk in, or ride an equine. go hunt some other places and you'll have a real appreciation for Az public land. a lot of places i hunt in new mex and colorado, the entire unit is private land. in some states almost all of the little public land there is are state parks that you can't hunt anyway. Lark.

what is outdoorsmans? Lark.

am i the only one that bpj reminds of bagdad bob? while the whole country is gettin' blown up and saddam is in hiding and his statue is gettin' knocked over by a tank he's out there talkin' about how the republican guard has the Americans on the run. the good guys won, the bad guys lost. deal with it. and i don't think the treehuggers really care. the only thing i worry about is what is the board member who doesn't make anything of this outfit who's wife make hunnders o' thousands o' bucks offa the deal is gonna do for a job now? and what are the 4 or 5 guides that are on the board, that doesn't have any guides on it, gonna do with all the money they ain't gonna make offa this deal now? hope nobody bought a new truck already. poor guys. maybe obama will bail em out. ok, right this minute i am starting a "conservation" club. everbody is a member but it don't cost nothin' and we don't do nothin'. but, we will nost waste any money payin' a board member's ol' lady to lobby somethin' that will go down in flames either. so everbody gets to keep their tags and it don't cost nothin'. the amount o' cash wasted on this deal coulda really done some good, somewhere. but the only folks that made anything off it are the lobbyist and poor rich guys didn't get their tags. what a deal. Lark.

i quit going to mexico a long time ago for reasons other than drug violence. just never could get comfortable there. my kids finally gave it up because they always had their stuff stolen, the last time by cops with machine guns. most of the folks getting killed are folks that are supposed to be the good guys. cops, school teachers, newspaper reporters, politicians, the bad guys are doing the killing. whatever the deal is, i didn't realize it was that crazy. and however you wanna compare the numbers to the US, this place is a lot safer than that place. i feel sorry for the mexicans. that is just bad. Lark.

one drawback, other than it ain't a model 70, from what i've seen they aren't twisted quite quick enough to shoot the real high bc bullets, like bergers, real accurate. my son has one and it is a shooter, but it won't stabilize real long bullets real well. shoots 130 gr sirrocos like a lazer tho. Lark.

not micro manage, flat out take it over. this bill is really dangerous and the fact that their toady keeps hammering on all the 'good' it will do and keeps telling us how we just don't want to or can't understand it, and ignore the tag grab part, really shows what the real deal is. i have nothing against a rich guy. i wish i was rich instead o' so good lookin'. i mean i like bein' good lookin', but a little more money would be nice. a lot more would be nicer. but i really resent guys that can go anywhere and buy anything trying to take away something that i spend a lotta my money and time trying to do. and i can't believe that the only excuse they can throw out is that we're too stupid to get it. and i don't believe the story that were was no input from not even one outfitter. i guarantee you there are more than one outfitter that was privy to this info while it was being formulated and there is a chance for a select few to make a buncha bucks having their posse sitting on a big animal for the guys with the tags they took away. i don't care what bpj says. he probably believes it, but i don't. this backroom, backdoor, secret, emergency session, hide it from everyone including the azgfd, paying a board memeber's wife a pile for lobby fees garbage, really makes folks wonder what the heck is goin' on. and it ain't good. well, not for us anyway. it woulda been good for a few guys. Lark.

thank you oak. man if this don't bust the barrel i don't know what will. just reading a couple of the names of the board members says more to me than anything. and then this unnamed consulting firm that bpj has been talking about, but not naming, happens to belong to a board members wife? and they have the nerve to say nobody on the board is making any money off the deal? don't eat that gramma, that is bull$h!t. somebody on the "board" made a buncha money off this fine outfit the last couple last years, don't matter how you wanna justify it. and the board member who dang sure made money offa this outfit useta be a commissioner? this is gettting better all the time. remember what i said about lies, d a m n lies and statistics? the statistics are jumpin' right out there to bite somebody on the butt. this is too good. take a look at the names on the list and then think a little about where some of the gov tags have went to the past few years. this thing has more tenticles than a tumor. and it smells real bad. i mean 5 day old dead hog in the sun in the summer time stink. Lark.

now i'm really cornfused. did you just dance around it again? if you don't know anything about it and aren't really involved then why are you packin' the water? this bill stinks and it's only goal is to take tags from the rank and file and give them to guys with a buncha money that can afford anything. you can say anything you want about all the other "good" it's supposed to do, but it is still real apparant to anybody other than you guys that it ain't good for anyone but you guys. that's what you need to take back to whoever is giving you your talking points and marching orders. why don't you have one of these guys you keep refering too to tell us why they backdoored it? you didn't even tell the azgfd. i would think they would want too know right off. seeing as how it is getting directly into their business in a big way. you tried to get involved in basically everything they do, without telling them, and then get a buncha primo tags for your rich buddies. i don't understand why you guys can't understand that? if you want to do something good, do it. but don't rip everyone else off in the process. sheesh. Lark.