cactusjack

The rule making public comment period is open on the Champ and Crossbow permit rule changes. It opened on the 11th of July and closes Aug 9th. The highlights or lowlights are- --"Qualified healthcare provider" to sign is limited to Doctor of Osteopathy or Doctor of Orthopedic Medicine. --Crossbow permit is renewed yearly. Removed.. was proposed Prohibited items for Crossbow Permit -- Magnifying or telescoping scope, red dot or other type of optic on a crossbow. -- Any form of bipod, tripod or other device used to balance, rest or steady a crossbow when a crossbow is in use, except a permit holder with a missing upper body extremity as defined in subsection (E)(4)(a)(i) below, may use such a device. There are more changes, but these are the ones I keyed in on. Mind you, Air Bows and vertical bows can still use Red Dots, magnified sights and bipods/tripods/braces. Just being applied to crossbows. My take away from talking with several Commissioners and many at the Department, the amount of "fraudulently acquired" permits was over played/emphasized and based on anecdotal evidence . The main problem seems to be the programs are not currently manageable or even trackable. I'm all for limiting the provider but the other changes are not reasonable. Here is a link to comment- https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScYIhOra-8hsDSgR8mjOmG99pSydNfhvrvufWo8B3zbBRfAtg/viewform champ and crossbow permit proposed changes 2025.pdf

as approved, if you listen to the minutes, at 7:16:36 Restricting the qualified physicians to a Doctor of Osteopathy or Doctor of Medicine with the appropriate practice and or specialization to address applicants disability.... 7:19:19 They added Primarily practice in Muscular Skeletal or Neuro Muscular disorders, diseases or conditions. Not all DOs. Not those who specialize in other fields. Age will not qualify you for a Crossbow permit. Only medical disabilities. So getting old, doesnt count. Apparently they changed it prior to the meeting

jdown, your doctor wouldn't be able to sign. It will need to be a specialist. A yearly visit to a PCP isnt unreasonably or typically difficult to schedule, but try to get into a specialist. Especially next year, if everyone who currently has a CHAMP and Crossbow permit are trying to get in. And lets think about people in rural areas. Do their areas have said specialists? The CHAMP permit will be permanent, but I think you still have to apply annually for the crossbow permit, even if you are missing an arm. The restrictions only apply to crossbows. Air bows can still use a bipod or tripod and a magnified optic. Compound bows can still use magnified optics and even monopods. If you have an upper body strength or stability issue, that would allow you to use a crossbow, wouldn't that strength or stability issue make holding one up a problem also? You would be forced to get a Champ permit also. As to the abuse, nobody was ever cited or even investigated. Are there people that cheated or lied? Probably. Go after them. I spoke with several of the Commissioners, they didn't feel that it was a rampant as some made it out to be. There are many allegations of abuse, but was it as wide spread as some claim? There is no way of knowing. There isn't any data, other than anecdotal data. Anecdotal isn't science. #6 in the Model. From the North American Conservation Model Wildlife as public trust resources: This principle states that all wildlife is held in trust by the government for the benefit of all citizens, not for private ownership or use. Elimination of markets for game: This pillar ensures that commerce in dead wildlife is eliminated, which prevents the overexploitation of species for commercial gain and protects them from being treated as a commodity. Allocation of wildlife by law: Wildlife is managed through established laws and regulations, such as hunting seasons and bag limits, ensuring fair distribution and preventing unregulated access. Wildlife can only be killed for a legitimate purpose: Wildlife should be hunted for a valid, non-frivolous reason, such as sustenance or sport, and always through legal and ethical means. Wildlife is an international resource: Recognizing that wildlife crosses borders, conservation efforts must be managed cooperatively across state and international boundaries to protect migratory species. Science is the basis for wildlife policy: Wildlife management and conservation decisions are based on scientific research and data, allowing for effective management and the maintenance of healthy populations and ecosystems. Democracy of hunting: Every citizen, regardless of wealth or social standing, has an equal opportunity under the law to participate in hunting and fishing, fostering a broad connection to conservation. Brian Rimzsa brought it to the Commission. He represents Bowhunting in Arizona, a trophy hunting and record book organization. Arizona Game and Fish does not manage for trophy hunting. Arizona’s 7 core concepts of conservation Wildlife is Held in the Public Trust Regulated Commerce in Wildlife Hunting and Angling Laws are Created Through Public Process Hunting and Angling Opportunity for All Hunters and Anglers Fund Conservation Wildlife is an International Resource Science is the Basis for Wildlife Policy Do the rules need to be changed. I would say yes. They let chiropractors sign, they are not medical doctors. Paring it back to the initial intent would be reasonable, but make the equipment requirements the same. The yearly expense to see a specialist plus the yearly fee to Game and Fish for a permit, when you have a disability that is permanent is unreasonable.

Remember this all started when the OTC deer hunt went to a quota system. First the out of state hunters were blamed for the seasons being closed early. Then the crossbows. Who will be blamed next? Just look at the posted OTC season, listing Dec and January dates on most Mule deer hunts is a waste of time. The hoards of desperate hunters flood to the "best units", closing them in the first week, many times surpassing the quota by the time it can be closed. Those units get moved into a draw, so the hoard moves on to the next "best units". It was the Kaibab, then Unit 3A & C, Unit 11, Unit 17A, and last year Units 1 and 27. I predict next year Units 5A&B, 6A, and 20A are next. Just slowly tugging off the bandaid that needs to be ripped off. The Primitive Hunts are no longer primitive. The only way to save the OTC Deer hunt is to change the allowed archery equipment. Long and recurve bows or atlatl only. No movable pins. No releases. Cedar arrows. You can still use your modern bows, in the HAM or General hunt or Archery Draw hunts. Commissioner Buchanan has mentioned technology being a problem in Primitive Hunts it in the past several meetings. The same will happen with Muzzleloaders. Only open sights, no sabots-round ball only, no inline. Before the new changes can be implemented, they have to be reviewed by the GRRC. I believe the proposed changes will have a difficult time passing the sniff test. "The GRRC reviews the rulemaking to ensure that the rules are necessary, consistent with legislative intent, within the agency’s statutory authority, do not create an adverse impact on the public, and whether the benefits of the rule outweigh the costs." There are several groups already pushing back. The changes unduly effect the disabled hunting community. Now go on, lash out. Make all the negative and snarky comments, but be ready, change is coming.

Spoke with Hornady, when they developed the load they were using powder that got really scarce. The Swedish government limited how much could be exported.

I have a Rock Pot and made bison, elk, venison Chile Verde on hunting trips. I keep it simple. Diced onions, salt, pepper, Mex oregano, garlic, cumin, tons of green roasted green chiles chopped into big chunks and the toughest parts of the animal with tendon and connective tissue. Sometimes roasted tomatillos, but not always. A ruex or corn starch is needed to thicken it up. Some rice and corn tortillas. Now Im hungry....

so we might have a language barrier here. Roast green chiles vs green chile (with pork, chicken, beef, elk, bison, deer.....) All favorites!!!

I order a side of green chile anytime I see it on a menu. Bisbee Breakfast Club has one, its really good but most of the people I go with pass on it after they get a small sample. A tad spicy....

My favorite green chile recipe is "Add it to anything and everything". Works every time.

I have dealt with a couple of rifles that we had to send back several times and eventually Christensen declared them lemons and sent out new rifles. Feeding issues, difficult to close bolts, stuck bolts after firing, tons of lapping and or bedding compound in barrel and chamber, 8 to 16in groups at 100yds.... This is what I heard from people in the industry, so take it with a grain of salt.... their Quality Control was the problem. They were not checking every rifle off the line, instead they were spot checking every 25th or 50th. Reamers get worn out. The ones we got back shot great. I have a Summit Ti 6.5PRC that is a tack driver. We had big problems with the 7PRC rifles, and Christensen was blamed, but it was mainly a Hornady problem. Never got consistent loads. And we never got anywhere close to the advertised speeds and the deviation and accuracy was crazy erratic. I remember getting speeds of 2950 and then 2820 in the same shot string. Now if you had a bad rifle and the bad ammo, you were cursed.

nice snag. Love me an old Sako

77

Bought it to hunt 18 years ago, but it is too nice.

Just kidding, I ain't getting rid of it

Here's mine. Open to trades

It is amazing how far this went off track. The net net, Disabled hunters are amongst us. From kids to adults. ADA law requires accommodations be made to ensure that individuals with disabilities have an equal opportunity to participate in public hunting programs and activities. Public entities may need to make reasonable modifications to their policies, practices, and procedures to ensure individuals with disabilities can access public hunting programs. For example, this could involve adapting regulations or providing alternative means of access. The public comment period is required by law also. The Commission is not required to do what the public wants, they are supposed to act in the best interest of the wildlife and wildlife management, based on scientific studies. But we should still comment. Reasonable modifications and accommodations do not mean that everywhere has to be accessible, but it does mean that the disabled hunter doesn't have to hang it up and go fishing or sit on the sideline. Many of us volunteer on youth hunts for friends, family or just someone asking for help. It is an awesome experience being with them on their first or 5th hunt. Doing the same thing with a disabled person that thought they would never get the chance, kid or adult, to hunt or keep hunting is life changing for everyone involved. Whether you change your mind one way or the other, doesn't really matter. Negative comments about who you think should or should not hunt will not affect the outcome, it just shows how you think and treat others. The internet has made people feel more comfortable to show their true colors. Ghandi has a famous quote when asked why he rejects Christ, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".

OTC deer is dying. I give it 3 years, 5 tops. Unit 1 is the proof. 80 tags filled in 6 days, limit was 45 for the season. Let's be generous and say 20% were crossbow, combination champ and crossbow permit hunters, so that's 16,lets remove them. So 64 were killed by vertical bow hunters. Unit still closed in 6 days. This year 1 and 27 went to the draw. Next year it will be the next group of mule deer units. And so it will be...

The CHAMP permit isn't going away. Neither is the Crossbow permit. You are going to have to deal with that. The only things they are deciding are-- What conditions qualify. Who can sign off. What can be used on the crossbow.

I understand that life isn't fair, never claimed that it was. Myself and a bunch of other disabled vets get that 100%. We get a hardy "Thank you for your service" on Nov 11th, but then we get told Life isn't fair when it comes to trying to live a somewhat normal life.

What has surprised me the most through this entire process is the lack of empathy and support for fellow hunters, specificly ones that are trying to have as normal of a life as possible while dealing with medical issues. Is it jealousy? Fear? Pure protectionism? Ignorance? It must be driven by scarcity and FOMO. I started writing my story but decided it doesn't matter, people's opinions are set. I wish you all years of health but if you do have an unfortunate change of medical situation, I hope you are able to continue participating in something you love even if it has to be modified to an extent.

I think when you voluntarily give your information out, HIPPA is kinda off the table.

Its going from here to compound bows and on to muzzleloaders. Pull the thread and watch your sweater unravel...

Most modern crossbows have optics of some sort. I have not seen any with pins and a peep in many years

Thats the thing that's funny about this, no evidence that this occurred on any large scale. Not 1 citation, warning or documented case was presented. Only anecdotal stories. OTC deer hunts being moved to the quota system has pushed people into looking for a scapegoat. OTC deer tags are doomed. Deal with it

Wearing earplugs is great. Everyone should wear them every time they shoot. Especially when using a brake. Everyone I talk to about ear plugs has a plan. Unfortunately putting them in is most often the part of the plan that is skipped when a quick shot or buck fever kicks in.