cactusjack

The rule making public comment period is open on the Champ and Crossbow permit rule changes. It opened on the 11th of July and closes Aug 9th. The highlights or lowlights are- --"Qualified healthcare provider" to sign is limited to Doctor of Osteopathy or Doctor of Orthopedic Medicine. --Crossbow permit is renewed yearly. Removed.. was proposed Prohibited items for Crossbow Permit -- Magnifying or telescoping scope, red dot or other type of optic on a crossbow. -- Any form of bipod, tripod or other device used to balance, rest or steady a crossbow when a crossbow is in use, except a permit holder with a missing upper body extremity as defined in subsection (E)(4)(a)(i) below, may use such a device. There are more changes, but these are the ones I keyed in on. Mind you, Air Bows and vertical bows can still use Red Dots, magnified sights and bipods/tripods/braces. Just being applied to crossbows. My take away from talking with several Commissioners and many at the Department, the amount of "fraudulently acquired" permits was over played/emphasized and based on anecdotal evidence . The main problem seems to be the programs are not currently manageable or even trackable. I'm all for limiting the provider but the other changes are not reasonable. Here is a link to comment- https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScYIhOra-8hsDSgR8mjOmG99pSydNfhvrvufWo8B3zbBRfAtg/viewform champ and crossbow permit proposed changes 2025.pdf

Spoke with Hornady, when they developed the load they were using powder that got really scarce. The Swedish government limited how much could be exported.

I have a Rock Pot and made bison, elk, venison Chile Verde on hunting trips. I keep it simple. Diced onions, salt, pepper, Mex oregano, garlic, cumin, tons of green roasted green chiles chopped into big chunks and the toughest parts of the animal with tendon and connective tissue. Sometimes roasted tomatillos, but not always. A ruex or corn starch is needed to thicken it up. Some rice and corn tortillas. Now Im hungry....

so we might have a language barrier here. Roast green chiles vs green chile (with pork, chicken, beef, elk, bison, deer.....) All favorites!!!

I order a side of green chile anytime I see it on a menu. Bisbee Breakfast Club has one, its really good but most of the people I go with pass on it after they get a small sample. A tad spicy....

My favorite green chile recipe is "Add it to anything and everything". Works every time.

I have dealt with a couple of rifles that we had to send back several times and eventually Christensen declared them lemons and sent out new rifles. Feeding issues, difficult to close bolts, stuck bolts after firing, tons of lapping and or bedding compound in barrel and chamber, 8 to 16in groups at 100yds.... This is what I heard from people in the industry, so take it with a grain of salt.... their Quality Control was the problem. They were not checking every rifle off the line, instead they were spot checking every 25th or 50th. Reamers get worn out. The ones we got back shot great. I have a Summit Ti 6.5PRC that is a tack driver. We had big problems with the 7PRC rifles, and Christensen was blamed, but it was mainly a Hornady problem. Never got consistent loads. And we never got anywhere close to the advertised speeds and the deviation and accuracy was crazy erratic. I remember getting speeds of 2950 and then 2820 in the same shot string. Now if you had a bad rifle and the bad ammo, you were cursed.

nice snag. Love me an old Sako

77

Bought it to hunt 18 years ago, but it is too nice.

Just kidding, I ain't getting rid of it

Here's mine. Open to trades

It is amazing how far this went off track. The net net, Disabled hunters are amongst us. From kids to adults. ADA law requires accommodations be made to ensure that individuals with disabilities have an equal opportunity to participate in public hunting programs and activities. Public entities may need to make reasonable modifications to their policies, practices, and procedures to ensure individuals with disabilities can access public hunting programs. For example, this could involve adapting regulations or providing alternative means of access. The public comment period is required by law also. The Commission is not required to do what the public wants, they are supposed to act in the best interest of the wildlife and wildlife management, based on scientific studies. But we should still comment. Reasonable modifications and accommodations do not mean that everywhere has to be accessible, but it does mean that the disabled hunter doesn't have to hang it up and go fishing or sit on the sideline. Many of us volunteer on youth hunts for friends, family or just someone asking for help. It is an awesome experience being with them on their first or 5th hunt. Doing the same thing with a disabled person that thought they would never get the chance, kid or adult, to hunt or keep hunting is life changing for everyone involved. Whether you change your mind one way or the other, doesn't really matter. Negative comments about who you think should or should not hunt will not affect the outcome, it just shows how you think and treat others. The internet has made people feel more comfortable to show their true colors. Ghandi has a famous quote when asked why he rejects Christ, "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".

OTC deer is dying. I give it 3 years, 5 tops. Unit 1 is the proof. 80 tags filled in 6 days, limit was 45 for the season. Let's be generous and say 20% were crossbow, combination champ and crossbow permit hunters, so that's 16,lets remove them. So 64 were killed by vertical bow hunters. Unit still closed in 6 days. This year 1 and 27 went to the draw. Next year it will be the next group of mule deer units. And so it will be...

The CHAMP permit isn't going away. Neither is the Crossbow permit. You are going to have to deal with that. The only things they are deciding are-- What conditions qualify. Who can sign off. What can be used on the crossbow.

I understand that life isn't fair, never claimed that it was. Myself and a bunch of other disabled vets get that 100%. We get a hardy "Thank you for your service" on Nov 11th, but then we get told Life isn't fair when it comes to trying to live a somewhat normal life.

What has surprised me the most through this entire process is the lack of empathy and support for fellow hunters, specificly ones that are trying to have as normal of a life as possible while dealing with medical issues. Is it jealousy? Fear? Pure protectionism? Ignorance? It must be driven by scarcity and FOMO. I started writing my story but decided it doesn't matter, people's opinions are set. I wish you all years of health but if you do have an unfortunate change of medical situation, I hope you are able to continue participating in something you love even if it has to be modified to an extent.

I think when you voluntarily give your information out, HIPPA is kinda off the table.

Its going from here to compound bows and on to muzzleloaders. Pull the thread and watch your sweater unravel...

Most modern crossbows have optics of some sort. I have not seen any with pins and a peep in many years

Thats the thing that's funny about this, no evidence that this occurred on any large scale. Not 1 citation, warning or documented case was presented. Only anecdotal stories. OTC deer hunts being moved to the quota system has pushed people into looking for a scapegoat. OTC deer tags are doomed. Deal with it

Wearing earplugs is great. Everyone should wear them every time they shoot. Especially when using a brake. Everyone I talk to about ear plugs has a plan. Unfortunately putting them in is most often the part of the plan that is skipped when a quick shot or buck fever kicks in.

Here is a copy of the letter I sent to Game and Fish, the Gov office, my State Senator, Pres of the Senate, 4 diff media outlets, and a couple ADA groups. Please contact Game and FIsh and make your opinion known. Even if you disagree with me, you have an opinion, its wrong 😂, but express it just the same. there are many reasons besides lack of strength to draw a bow that can cause someone to be unable to draw, hold, aim and release accurately an arrow. In my case I have nerve damage/neuropathy, essential tremors, shoulder injuries, and an auto immune connective tissue problem that causes my ligaments and tendons to rip away where they are supposed to be. Its not a strength problems. 3 shoulder surgeries to put things back in place forced me to look at other options. My surgeon at the VA was the person who told me about the program. The VA has been pushing disabled vets to get back to doing what we did prior to our injuries, especially outdoors with our friends and families. It sometimes requires adaptive means. Taking away options because some people have abused it, doesn't seem like a good idea. Go after the bad players. I know its extreme but Lets get rid of all handicap parking because some people inherited their grandparents old placards or lied..... https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScYIhOra-8hsDSgR8mjOmG99pSydNfhvrvufWo8B3zbBRfAtg/viewform rulemaking@azgfd.gov Subject: why is AZ Game and Fish taking away hunting opportunities from disabled hunters that are not disabled enough Arizona Game and Fish Department 5000 W. Carefree Hwy Phoenix, AZ 85086 Subject: Opposition to Repeal of R12-4-216 and Advocacy for Equitable Hunting Opportunities Dear Arizona Game and Fish Department, I am writing to express my concerns regarding the proposed repeal of R12-4-216 and the growing discourse surrounding crossbow use in archery-only hunts. As a committed advocate for equitable and fair hunting practices, I believe this change could alienate and disadvantage certain hunters, particularly those with physical disabilities who rely on crossbows as their legal method of take. The argument that crossbow technology has advanced beyond "standard archery equipment" does not hold when weighed against the progress of other hunting technologies. Compound bows to high-powered scopes, technological advancements have benefited all hunters across the board, offering more ethical and efficient harvesting opportunities. Singling out crossbows is an inconsistent and inequitable stance. If technology is a concern, should we not then limit compound bows, inline muzzleloaders, or range finders? Clearly, this approach is neither practical nor fair. Furthermore, statistical claims about the increased number of crossbow hunters are misleading when contextualized with Arizona's growing population and hunter demographics. With a population increase of 9.9% since 2015 and more individuals entering the sport, a proportional rise in crossbow permits is inevitable. The 1.3% of permit holders using crossbows represents a minor fraction of the total hunters and cannot reasonably be classified as a problem. Assertions regarding quick harvests and over-the-counter (OTC) unit closures fail to account for practical realities. Disabled hunters with crossbows are more likely to act on their opportunities due to limited mobility, while other hunters often prioritize trophy harvests, which extends hunting durations. It’s worth noting that nearly half of the OTC units remain open, debunking the notion of widespread closures due to crossbow use. Recommendations: Refinement of the CHAMP and Crossbow Permit Application Process: Introduce stricter accountability for medical professionals authorizing crossbow permits to ensure legitimate use. Transition to Draw-Based Archery Deer Seasons: Implement a system where all hunters, regardless of method of take, compete equally through a draw process for archery tags. This ensures fairness and mitigates concerns about overharvest by a specific group. Public Representation and Transparency: Include representation from crossbow and CHAMP permit holders in stakeholder discussions to ensure their perspectives are considered in decision-making processes. Arizona Game and Fish has worked hard to build rapport with non-hunting constituencies. Repealing R12-4-216 without adequately addressing concerns risks damaging the Department's reputation and undoing years of effort to foster public support for responsible wildlife management. I urge you to reconsider the proposed changes and instead work toward solutions that maintain equitable opportunities for all hunters, honoring the diversity and inclusivity that defines Arizona's outdoor heritage. Thank you for considering my concerns. I am confident Arizona Game and Fish will act in the best interest of all stakeholders. Sincerely, Steve

I read a different tone in this response. My problem with the way this whole thing unfolded is it was based on unsubstantiated allegations and anecdotal accounts of fraud, technological advancement restrictions only applyed unilaterally, initiated by biased groups trying to protect a doomed OTC deer hunt, targeting a group of people who already have many personal challenges. Are there people who cheated the system? Probably. Does it need to be reworked? Sure. Had it been worded as simply as the following, in my opinion the division in groups and anger by those who feel attacked would have been much less. The current Crossbow and CHAMP permit programs have become unmanageable in their current form and the Commission is proposing a purge and restart with new requirements. Public comment period is from .. to .. . (Given facts, purposed new requirements and restrictions on equipment)

Sorry to hurt your feeling. Not really. Low budget mentors are needed. You are Savage. I hope you get your 50yrs, some of us didn't and didn't abuse the old system. Yet still we get painted by others as cheaters, cowards, ect. Some of us went into the military as able bodied and are now unable to pull and hold a bow. Thank you for your future low budget mentorship.