azsugarbear

Good deal here, guys.

Thanks for all the replies, guys!

Great advice. Any more set-ups out there?

Would you trade the time with family, the campfire and the beer for bigger horns? I think you have already figured out where the real trophy lies.

I want to have a frank and open discussion about the game and fish laws in Arizona. I do not approach this lightly. And I suspect there will be some blow-back from some hunters, so I am a little nervous. But I feel it is something worthy of discussion, so here goes: Did you know that nearly all game and fish violations are Class 2 Felonies? Did you know that enforcement officers have no latitude legally to reduce or ignore a potential violation without opening themselves up to a Class 2 Misdemeanor? Did you know that current game and fish laws make no distinction between a honest and ethical hunter who accidentally makes a mistake and violates a law and then self-reports and the true criminal poacher who purposefully and intentionally sets out to break the law? I learned this the hard way in the Fall of 2016. Without going into much detail, I unintentionally shot a second turkey while mentoring a new hunter on his first turkey hunt. It was on a Saturday evening with the sky beginning to spit some rain. We quickly dressed out the birds and packed up camp. There was no cell service where we were, so no ability to call and report. By the time we got to town with cell phone service it was dark and with rain coming down sideways. Since AZGFD was closed for the weekend, I decided to self report the incident first thing Monday morning. In hindsight, I guess I should have called the "Stop Game Thief" hot line, but I honestly did not see myself as a poacher or game thief. Monday morning found me at G&F headquarters. I told the lady at the reception desk that I needed to self-report a game violation. She became rather puzzled and flustered - almost like she didn't know what to do. She finally called an officer to come out of the back room to meet with me. I had always been raised as an ethical hunter, so I felt that self-reporting was the only option for me. I trusted in the knowledge that AZGFD and I were on the same side: that we had the same goals in mind. By the time my interview was finished, I had all kinds of bells and whistles going off in my head. The interviewing officer told me not to worry. He said, "Game and Fish wants to encourage hunters to self-report violations, so we are given great latitude in how we deal with it". Only later did I learn from my attorney that an officer of the law can legally lie, misrepresent, mislead, misstate, threaten, etc. during the course of an investigation in order to gather the evidence he needs to build a case. The next day, I contacted my brother, who happens to be an attorney here in Phoenix. The first several minutes were spent with me listening him tell me how stupid I was to self-report. I assured him I had done the 'right thing' and that AZGFD would be fair with me. I then got a legal lesson in how things really worked. My brother sat me down with the Arizona Revised Statutes Title 17-309 to 310, plus 17-340. After reading them, I was white as a sheet. I learned that nearly all game and fish violations are Class 2 Felonies - that's right - felonies, not misdemeanors. I also learned that officers have no latitude in dealing with said violation without opening themselves up to charges. I waited patiently for some word from G & F. About a month later, I got a call from an officer who wanted to drop by my house. Well, my heart sank. There was no need to drop by my house unless I was getting a citation. Sure enough - a Class 2 Felony. This is not some light slap on the wrist, this is right up there with violent crime and drug use. The law makes no distinction between a drug user caught with illegal drugs, a criminal who commits a violent act, a poacher who spotlights deer and shoots several - only to get caught months later by a tip to the hot line, or an honest hunter who turns himself in for an accidental mistake. I won't go into any more detail about what happened after that unless there is enough interest. Just know that my experience was expensive, demeaning, and that I elected to go through a program that required me to voluntarily give up several of my constitutional rights (such as opening my house and family to warrantless searches 24-7; to voluntarily submit, at my own expense, to drug tests; to neither own nor possess any firearms; etc.) rather than plead guilty to the Class 2 Felony. My purpose in writing this is two-fold: First to make others aware of exactly what the law says and requires so that we as hunters can make informed decisions; secondly: to see if there is support for getting the laws changed so that there is a legal difference between a hunter who self-reports and criminals who a caught committing true crimes. From my own research, there are about 19 states that currently recognize the distinction between the two actions. Sadly, Arizona is not one of them.

300RUM - great post and analysis. You are spot on with the fork in the road. I am just wondering if it doesn't make sense to build a third road to make it easier for those who screw up and want to do the right thing without coughing up big dollars for legal fees in additional to any mandated fine.

Flatlander- not sure what else to say here. I committed a crime. I chose to confess because I felt it was the right thing to do - not to ease my conscience. Never once did I try to set the terms. Anyone who has been in the criminal justice system knows that the accused never sets any terms. I took my full punishment. This is not about me. I am through it and out the other side. So why not ease up on the whole 'man up' routine? Been there and done that. I am trying to look to the future here and make others aware of what I went through, so that they can make an informed decision. I am asking others how they feel about the laws, not what they think of me and my choices. It wasn't just a simple fine here. Nobody told me about the diversion program. Nobody gives you any help when the wheels of the criminal court system begin to grind. I had to pay $2,500 to an attorney to learn of the program. This thread gives me the opportunity to share this information with others for free so they don't end up paying $2,500 for an unintentional poaching mistake. Perhaps some day a CWT reader will find himself looking down at a son or granddaughter who has done something similar. Being in full possession of the pertinent facts, or knowing there is a new law on the books may make his advice to his family member a little easier. I would never try and tell another man what to do. I do know that given the current laws on the books, I would have a difficult time telling a son or granddaughter to turn himself in. In the words of my attorney, "Being honest and fair only works when the playing field is level. In your case, all the cards belong to the house". This thread was meant to discuss the merits of a law like many other states have, where self-reported game violations are treated differently.

akaspecials - I would respectfully disagree with you on your 'buddy hunting' comment. When I asked him if he had killed his bird and he identified the same bird I had shot at, then there became a possibility that it was his bird. At that moment, it became possible that we had shot and killed the same bird. Was it possible that he missed that bird? Yes. Was it possible that I missed that same bird? Yes. Was it possible we both hit the bird? Yes. There was no way of knowing in the moment. I allowed for the fact that we both hit it and decided to let him claim it. On a separate note: This thread is still getting lots of comments about what I should have done and how bad I screwed up. I appreciate the comments and different perspectives. However, that is not what this thread is about. This thread is asking questions about the laws currently in place, what other states are doing, and whether or not a change is warranted. Please limit any future posts to those questions being asked. For all others, I have a thick skin, so if you want to dump on me - fine. Just start your own thread.

Flatlander - the issue is not that they wrote a ticket for a violation. I fully expected that. I fully expected to pay a fine and perhaps some community service. What I did not expect was when you plead guilty or no contest, it opens up the door to a civil action where G & F (not a civil court) can decide to fine and revoke or suspend your hunting privileges for up to five years. That is far from being a simple matter and it seems a little extreme to me for what I did. After my initial encounter with G & F, I was not inclined to put any further trust and faith in them to find some middle ground or to play fair. Enacting a new law could be one way of ensuring that certain self-reported violations are treated differently. I am trying to complete my Arizona Big Ten. At my age, having my hunting privileges suspended for even one year would completely knock me out of any chance for drawing a big horn tag. I would lose the annual point, plus lose my loyalty point. Losing those two points alone would mathematically put me out of the running until I am 75. I just couldn't risk it. By the way, my attorney made no recommendation. He laid out all the courses of action, along with everything that could go wrong or right with each one. Then he let me make the call. I was simply unwilling to give G & F another shot at me, my wallet or my future hunting. Additionally, I am a financial professional that holds several licenses. I make my livelihood with them. Having a public criminal record could impact my ability to renew them and therefore, was simply not an option - regardless of the violation. The diversion program made the violation disappear. Perhaps you see it differently in part because your circumstances are not the same as mine? Some comments in this thread have been along the lines that poaching is poaching. Period. Black and white. I get it. That is the way the law currently reads. One of my questions is: Should it? With most other criminal violations, the law clearly looks to the original intent. That is why, when a life is taken, there are several different violations that a person can be charged with from first degree murder on down to negligent homicide. Stealing a candy bar from a store is no different than stealing millions from the elderly through fraud. It's all stealing, right? My point is, the law has always been willing to look at the intent of the charged individual as well as the magnitude and severity of the crime itself. Did he/she intend for this to happen? But the legal term "criminal intent" has oddly been left out of the laws drawn up for G & F. Please understand - I'm not calling anybody out here. This is the kind of open discussion I was looking for.

Thank you for all the responses. I had hoped to generate an open discussion about our game law violations as they are currently written. But sometimes these threads have a life of their own and the discussion seems to go down another track. Having lived this nightmare, nobody better understands than I do what other courses of action I should have taken. I made several mistakes and I took my lumps. Please understand, I am trying to redirect this thread back to where I first intended it to go. So help me out here. Let's put the Monday-morning quarterbacking behind us and move on to the real questions at hand. Knowing what I went through, did the punishment (cash outlay to defend myself in criminal matter) fit the violation? Should a simple mistake in judgement and then self reporting it to G & F open that hunter up to a potential loss of his hunting license? And if not, then how does one go about trying to change the laws to achieve a more equitable solution?

Based upon my research, I found some 20 states that had enacted some kind a legislation that differentiated between the non-intentional, self-reported violation, and the true "poacher" who willfully violates the law. I am wondering why we don't have that legislation in our state and whether or not there is enough support for it to start some kind of grass roots movement. It was a painful education for me and I felt a criminal charge is simply over-reaching. In my case, I felt the punishment simply did not fit the crime. Am I alone in this? Are there enough others who feel that a change might be in order? If so, then where could/should we start? Just testing the waters.

I get it, but I'm willing to endure some humiliation in order to educate other hunters about what can happen when they self-report. In many respects, I think that is one of the advantages of being a member of CWT and other sites. A free exchange where many can learn. Sharing our mistakes and learning from others is what makes us better hunters. Besides, a little crow doesn't taste that bad now and then.

Yah, I knew this would go off track. I really wanted the focus of this thread to be about a possible change in laws. But, before we can get there, I guess we need to discuss some other items that appear to be a distraction: trphyhntr: to my mind, a poacher is someone who intentionally sets out to break the laws and illegally take game. I submit that a spur of the moment 'bad/poor' decision when hunting does not put one in the same class as someone who goes out at night spotlighting deer, killing one and then hiding it in his barn. Perhaps to you they are one and them same. If so, you have weighed in on the matter and I thank you for your opinion. Your "hang 'em all" opinion has been noted. And for the record, I am not telling everyone that I am a poacher. I am telling people, "I made an honest mistake and here is what happened to me". bonecollector777: I suppose we could go back and forth about felony vs. misdemeanor, but for the sake of argument - let's say you are right. That still makes it a criminal charge. Hopefully, that will get us back on track: When a hunter makes a mistake without "intent", sould it be a criminal charge or a civil citation? A criminal citation opens the door for Game & Fish to take another shot at you through a civil violation. (More on this later). General back-fill on story: the hunter with me was an adult. We each had a tag. I was not paid. I was simply help my friend get into the sport of hunting. We were in a ground blind. We had a prior agreement that we would both shoot at the flock at the same time to increase our chances of both getting our turkey. I would shoot a bird from my side of the flock. He would shoot one on his side. The plan worked perfectly. We both fired at the same time. My bird dropped in front of a pinon tree. I asked him if he got his. His reply was "I don't know, I don't see it". That was followed shortly by "Oh wait a minute, there it is in front of the tree". As many of you know, visibility is not great when there are two adults in a small blind. My immediate thought was: great, he shot my bird, or he missed and thinks that my bird is the one he was aiming at. Rather than correct him, I decided to let him have "my" bird. I wanted his first turkey hunt to be a positve experience. There was a poult still running around, so I elected to shoot it for the gumbo pot back home. We exited the blind and began walking towards the turkey in front of the pinon when all of a sudden, another turkey, hidden behind a log, began to flap its wings. My friend said, "Oh there's my turkey". Yes - I would have made a different choice today. But that is exactly the way it went down. Nothing more sinister than that. Nothing left out. Now, here is what happened after the citation was issued: The prosecutor's office was of no help to me (they weren't supposed to help me). My brother helped where he could, but he is a civil attorney, not a criminal attorney. I started doing research and talking to everyone I could. I consulted with another brother who is a judge in a municipality. Based on what I told him, he stated that there was very little chance a judge could find me innocent of the charges based on my own written confession. My criminal attorney suggested something called a diversion program. It is not available in every county and is not automatically offered to a defendant. My attorney requested the diversion program and the county prosecutor granted the request. The diversion program is much like probation, except diversion is voluntary and comes before guilt or innocence is determined. Probation is after the fact. A guilty plea is agreed to by the defendant in advance, which is put into a 'drawer' and forgotten about as long as defendant abides by the terms of the diversion program. If he violates the terms, then he has already given up his right to a trial and the guilty verdict is entered. If he successfully completes the program then the violation is expunged from his record. The terms of the year-long diversion program are: 1) must obey all local, state and federal laws 2) must report monthly to program administrator that address remains current and there has been no negative contact with any LE Agency 3) cannot knowingly associate with anyone on probation, parole, or criminal charges pending 4) must abstain from committing any alcohol or illegal drug offenses. must submit to a drug test (paid for by defendant) at the sole discretion of the Program Manager. 5) must not possess or control any firearm or deadly weapon w/o knowledge or consent of Program Manager 6) must pay $250 fee for administrative costs of Diversion program 7) must complete a hunter safety course and supply certificate to Program Manager 8) must immediately notify Manager of change in employment status 9) must submit to a search and seizure of my person or property by Manager or other LE at Manager's request at any time, day or night with or without probable cause (direct quote here). The alternative to entering the program would have been to take my chances in court. If found guilty, the judge would have passed some kind of sentence - most likely a fine and community service. The bad part of being found guilty is that it opens the door for Game & Fish to come after you the civil courts. Remember: your first go-around was in the criminal courts. Now Game and Fish can choose to take another bite of the apple through the civil courts. The civil penalty for shooting a turkey is another $250 (set by law), plus they also have the option of revocation, suspension, or denial of a hunting license for up to five years. Guys - the final upshot here is that I made a mistake. I did not expect to get off 'scot-free'. I expected to pay a fine and possibly do some community service. What I ended up with a cash outlay of $2,750. $2,500 for legal representation that made the diversion program available to me; plus $250 in program fees. Add to that the worry of an unannounced demand for a search of my house or a drug test that could come in the middle of the night. And then live with that cloud hanging over you for a year. By this point, I no longer was very trusting of any government agency to play fair with me. My chosen course of action was preferable than giving AZGFD the ability to revoke or suspend my hunting license. So again, I put to you the question: Should a self-reported incident where there was no prior intent to break the law be a mandatory criminal misdemeanor, or should the law be changed to a civil fine and/or penalty, thereby eliminating the need to hire legal counsel and avoiding the chance for Game & Fish coming at you a second time? BTW - We all know people who have gotten off with a warning. But the law (ARS 17-309 e) clearly states: "A peace officer who knowingly fails to enforce a lawful rule of the commission or this title is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor". Any latitude an officer has is taken at his own risk. Why not make new laws where latitude is spelled out, rather than being applied in an arbitrary or capricious manner?

My case file is at the office, so I won't be able to quote chapter and verse on ARS until tomorrow. My citation was for a felony as are most other major game violations. I knew there would be some coulda, shoulda woulda comments. At this point, it doesn't matter so much. I am through it and out the other side. My point in writing this is to make other hunters and fishermen aware of how things really work. Secondly, are there other hunters out there who feel the laws need to be changed? I agree that any new laws regarding self-reporting would have to be narrowly construed, but many other states seem to have successfully navigated these waters. In short: are we happy with the way things are, or does there seem to be some injustice here? From my experience, the punishment far exceeded the 'crime'. I went from being a life-time supporter of AZGFD to an adversary in the blink of an eye. Every time I tell my story to hunters, boy scouts and their leaders, church members, and anyone else who will listen - everyone has been appalled at the treatment.

Sorry guys, I'm with Big Tub on this one. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. If the road was a dead end and that was explained to the first truck, they had the option of turning around and heading back out - thus preserving the hunt for the first group there; or they could push forward and exercise their right to the public road. Ethics and courtesy be damned. With those kinds of hunters, I go out of my way to return the favor first chance I get. It is not just about public rights, it is about respect and recognizing there is enough public land for everybody. Now if this were a road going from point A to point B and beyond - then I have no problem with them driving through.

I got a call for the second hunt. It was for cow elk. She said terrain was flat with thick juniper & pinon. I was also told about 150 elk in the area. She also stated that the warden anticipated a success rate around 25%. I had just finished up a tough cow elk hunt on a friend's tag in Unit 9. Tough hunt - couldn't pattern anything. We gave up and came home early. I wasn't about to go through that again, so I took a pass on this hunt. Best if luck to all those who decided to plunk down the dollars.

I'll start the reports. Late cow elk hunt in Unit 9 was miserable. Dry & dusty. Checked close to 20 tanks on the northwest side. Only one tank was holding water. There were elk in the area, but only in groups of 1 to 4 - never any bigger. No way to pattern them. Spoke with rancher in the area. It is the worst he has seen in 30 years. No water down in the southeast side of Unit 9 around Red Butte. Northeast side near the park border faired better with the water, but all the elk holed up in the park and then came across at night to water.

long or short action? right hand, I presume?

I'm pretty certain that a 452 will not drop into your Manners. The 452 has a different footprint than the 455.

I'll take this at $200.

I thought I would post this to see if anyone has any interest. I bought 200 rounds of this ammo, mostly for breaking in a new barrel and some elk hunting. I still have 100 rounds (5 boxes) that I want to sell. I bought this ammo at roughly $20.00 per box, including shipping. I took advantage of Remington's rebate at $5 per box which I would pass on to the buyer. Total would be $15 per box, with 2 box minimum. Sell all five boxes for $70 ($14/box). Only trade would be for Winchester brass in 270 WSM. Respond here, send PM or text to 602-361-7191. Listed on other boards as well.

Sold

Devcon with Johnson car wax as a release agent.

Upon further reflection, I have decided to keep this as a project gun. Thanks to all those that expressed their interest.

I recently took ownership of this rifle. I don't need a second rifle in the 270 WSM caliber, so this one is up for sale. The Ultimate Shadow was designed as an all-weather rig with a synthetic stock. Barrel is 24" in length with a 1 in 10 twist that can stabilize bullets up to 160 grains. The scope that comes with the rifle is a cheap 3-9x40mm Bushnell. The entire set-up weighs just 7.5 lbs. Honest appraisal: This rifle has seen some use. The scope and mounting hardware have many dings and scrapes - so does the stock. I had my doubts about this rifle's accuracy, so I gave the barrel a good cleaning and then took it to the range yesterday. Even with the typical untuned Winchester trigger and crappy scope, it still held a three shot group that measured 1.25" with both 140 gr. & 150 gr. factory Winchester Silver tip ammo. With a decent scope, I have no doubt the groups will shrink to 1.0" This isn't the pretty girl you take to the prom. It's more a truck gun or starter gun with an appearance that belies its ability to perform. Priced to move at $435. If interested email or text/call at 602-361-7191. Listed on other web sites as well, but preference given to CTW members.