NTBoy

Many Thanks for all the info folks. If I get drawn this may be my one and only hunt in Arizona and i want to enjoy the whole experience and if I get a chance at a buck, so much the better. I appreciate everyone's input.

Thanks for that info. Has anyone hunted the western part of 36b around or on the Buenos Airies NWR?

Thanks for the info and the link, but since I have never been to Arizona, I am trying to get an idea of where to focus my efforts if I get drawn for the October hunt. I have obtained all the topo maps for 36b and have been reading everything I can find about hunting in the unit. My concern is are there enough white tails on the western side of the unit for a viable hunt if I do my part. Not looking for a trophy animal, just a decent buck if possible. I plan on being out there 3 to 4 days before the hunt starts, and plan on hunting the whole season if necessary. I am just curious as to what the odds are of all of 36b being closed, all of Coranodo NF being closed, or just the area involved in the fire and perhaps a buffer zone around it being closed, and if parts of the unit are still open for the hunt, which area would be better to concentrate own. I know I won't kill anything if I don't get out there and hunt, just wanting to narrow down the places to be looking.

Okay, so one of the things I have not been able to learn yet, is exactly or approximately how large 36b is. If only 25% was affected by the fire, then that would/should put total acreage of the unit at or over 300K acres. Is that close? I have not seen anything listed about the fire effecting the west side over around the Buenos Airies NWR. Anyone have any knowledge/information on that?

Okay, I have not been on here in a little while so I was surprised by the thread concerning the closures of some of the units involved in the recent fires. I put in for the October hunt in 36B. How will AG&FD handle this situation if I got drawn, anyone have an idea? Will I get refund on the application, or will successful applicants for such units be allowed to enter a drawing for another unit or something along those lines? Will the entire unit be closed or just the area effected by the fire? Interested in hearing anyone's take on the situation. Does anyone know if all of 36B was effected or just the Murphy Peak area?

Don't know anythiong about Coues, but I will make a guess, 143 and 5/8.

Plus 2. That same thing can be said for every state that has a huntable population of white tail, either species, or mulies or black tails. good hunters will kill good animals. Not so good hunters want to have the various Game and Fish departments to do the work for them and try to produce nothing but trophy animals, so they do not have to actually hunt, all they will have to do is pick and choose. JMO.

Wished I could, and am not going to get into an arguement. Rarely if ever do we take any pictures of the spikes and does we shoot, but we do pull the jaws and age them. But from experience here in Texas, the statement about the genetics in your area being possibly messed up, could be quite true. We each have our experiences, and from mine I go along with spikes being inferior animals. If at 1.5 a buck has branched antlers under normal range conditions that animals has better genetic potential than a similarly aged buck on the same range that is a spike. Waiting for any particular animal to reach maturity i.e. breeding age, to see whetehr it is going to produce a good rack, is only practical on high fenced properties, where that animal can be monitored. That is practically impossible to do with free ranging deer, unless a particular animal has some type of distinguishing markings to ensure that it can be recognised any time it is seen. The biggest problem as I see it, in playing the waiting game with spikes, is at what age does a person decide a particular spike is a no go, will never produce a good rack, and decided it needs to be taken out, 3.5/4.5? Keeping in mind that this same spike is breeding any doe he can, passing along those spike genetics. Whether it is Arizona/Pennsylvania/Texas where ever white tails are hunted, the arguement about Trophy Hunting/QDM versus just folks wanting to shoot a deer keeps rearing its ugly little head and no ones mind is ever changed. The Trophy/QDM supporters tend to or do want regulations enacted, that force everyone to hunt the way they want it done. The folks that are just interested in shooting deer are left out in the cold, unless a person is in an area with liberal doe limits. The problem lies in the fact that not all of us hunt under the exact same ethical standards, so like here in Texas, once a buck in the AR counties reaches Lucky Number 13, he is shot, unless the land owner has ranch regulations in effect that restrict the harvest to 4.5 year olds or older. I can't see that being practical at all on vast tracts of Public Land, where there is no way to inventory each and every deer. Unless or until management practices regardless of the state can guarantee that 100% of a free ranging herd will produce trophy antlers, or 100% of all spikes will grow a good rack, or 100% of all spikes do not do any breeding, the various management schemes are doomed to failure. To me, this would be especially true on Public Land, where the herd can not be intensively controlled/managed and the people hunting such areas can not be controlled so that such things as was mentioned by another poster, won't happen. Again, all of this is just my opinion.

Just a couple of comments from an outsider as far as hunting in Arizona goes, most of my deer hunting experience is here in Texas, at least as far as white tails are concerned. Texas has been trying various "QDM" type programs and while some folks like them, a lot of folks don't. I also have friends in Pennsylvania that are not overly impressed with the programs that are in place up there. I killed my first white tail in 1970, so do have some experience. Spikes usually are genetically inferior deer. Bucks that have spike antlers at 1.5 years old may eventually have branched antlers but rarely ever develope normal main frame 8 point or better racks with very very much mass to them. It is too difficult to accurately age a deer on the hoof in the wild as someone else stated. In my opinion, that is why the states that develope plans, base it on the size of or number of points on the bucks antlers. Some counties here in Texas require a legal buck to have a minimum inside antler spread of 13 inches. It is really hard to tell the difference in a legal 13 1/2 inch buck and an illegal 12 3/4 inch buck at 100+ yards. That is not a big deal for trophy hunters, but for folks just wanting some meat it may mean going 2 or 3 years without getting a buck. For me that is no problem, as all I shoot any more is does. In some of the counties with the AR's the limit is 5 deer with a limit of 2 bucks, only one of which can be a "Trophy" buck, or a hunter can legally shoot 2 spikes, and is encouraged to do so. The problem I have observed with the 13" rule, is there are bucks in the herd that while having 8 or 10 point racks, will never on their best day make 13 inches inside spread, no matter how much protein feed they have available, and as someone else stated those bucks with those inferior genetics, do their fair share of breeding and passing those genes along. Same can be said for spikes, as I have killed or been in on the killing of spikes that were over 3.5 and even older. I just feel that some of the various schemes of deer management that are based on the antlers don't really, in the long run, benefit the health of the deer herd. Could be wrong on that, but with as many deer as we have here in Texas, I really don't think that TP&W has real time data as to the makeup of the herd in any one area. Sorry for the ramble folks, just stating an observation.

Many Thanks for all the advice all of hyou have given, I do appreciate it. What I need to know at this point, is how big a risk the illegals are? I have been dealing with illegals out in west Texas where I hunt javelina since 1998, and have never had a problem. I will be camping at either a commercial campground or a State Park, and driving to the area where I will be hunting. If I am going to be hunting by myself, would it be in my best interest to apply for a unit where I will have a harder chance of getting drawn, but less chance of having problems with illegals, or go for one of the units where I will have a better chance of getting drawn, and shooting a buck, b ut possibly/probably having to deal with illegals?

Many Thanks for the information. My next step is picking a unit I can possibly get drawn for, that is the biggest hurdle I am facing. Getting drawn will give me a reason to try and make a scouting trip.

Many, Many Thanks folks for the help. The whole trip hinges on getting drawn, but I will go with the afreas where I stand the best chance of getting drawn. My only concern with illegals has to do with the fact I will be hunting alone. I will be camping at either a commercial campground or a state park if possible. If I do hunt on an opening weekend, I will do like I have done in Nebraska on Public Land, and find me a high spot and hope some one runs something over me or by me. I figure that if I get drawn, I will be out there 4 or 5 days before opening day scouting, hunt a little on opening weekend and concentrate on hunting Monday afternoon thru Thursday morning, and hope I ghet a cxhance at something. I appreciate all you folks advice.

Actually I do have access to some land, I am not sure how easy it would be to gain access for a swap hunt or similar since it is my bosses land and we have a hunting operation on it. Just now getting familiarized with AG&FD rules and regs, but from the info I have already received from some folks, the early hunt will be the one I will be putting in for. I have done spot and stalk hunting for white tails here in Texas, and for muleys/pronghorns and elk, in Colorado/Wyoming and western Nebraska, which was at altitudes from 3500 up to 7500 +. I have been interested in doing a coues hunt for several years, and after getting a bear in Idaho this past September, I decided that trying to put a Coues hunt together was something I needed to get done.

That is what folks are telling me. I am not sure, since I have never been to Arizona, but I am guessing that you folks 80 to 90 degree weather is cooler than the part of Texas I live in since I would be hunting in a drier climate and at a higher altitude.

Hello. I have recently decided on trying to do a D-I-Y coues hunt if I can get drawn. I have never put in for a tag and Arizona and am working my way thru the process so I will be ready to send in my application before the deadline. I am planning on using my 300 Weatherby Mark V with 150 or 165 grain bullets on this hunt, and having the rifle where it should be dead on at 300 to 350 yards. I have never hunted Arizona before, and this will be a one time deal, so all I am after is just a nice representative/legal buck, not into trophy hunting, would not turn one down if he was dumb enough to stand still long enough for me to get a shot off, but for me the trophy will be hunting in Arizona and shooting a coues. I have had some advice from a couple of Arizonans about management units. I have also been told that the kind of hunt I am wanting to do, might be more productive for my hunting style if i did it pre-rut, in Nov. instead of Dec.. Any help or advice any of you would be willing to give would be appreciated.