lonne

Awesome. That woulda scared the daylights out of most! I like the orange color on the neck/back or is it just the way the light is hitting it?

Justin, I don't know Lee unfortunately - but I did work as a contract software developer at Choice Hotels for awhile and there are a few hunters there and it is a great company...send me your resume also. The position you are in is tough and getting contracts/jobs around December can be difficult but usually companies are hiring in the new year...

Any good NRA or hunting lawyers out there? I would sure like to exercise my right to hunt and camp without a fire this weekend...to support my family I also do not need a $5000 fine... See map attached. This order is in effect until Aug 31...that covers a large portion of the Fall Non-Permit tag as well as the current Spring Draw tag. OK I'm pretty upset, ok frankly am pissed. I can understand regulations of no fires because of extreme fire danger but disallowing access to the entire forest? I am ... very ticked off... So if you have a Spring bear tag, this has to be one of the best weekends to go bear hunting because of the heat... My cousin who was going bear scouting with me this weekend and drove up before me just called me to tell me he cannot access the area below because a big sign is posted saying it is closed. One place I was scouting since April has already been closed due to a fire and now this area...So effectively all the scouting I have done has gone down the drain... I've been scouting in 22 and planned to go this weekend and this area is completely closed, and I do not see anything about hunting being allowed. I saw on AZGFD website today that some places in Tonto NF were closed including Fossil Creek and Hackberry Mountain area, but nothing mentioned about whether hunting is allowed or if my area in Tonto NF was affected: http://azgfd.net/art...onditions.shtml The closure order is here: http://www.fs.usda.g...prdb5375194.pdf Neither of these two items listed allow hunting, in my interpretation: Persons with a Forest Service permit specifically authorizing the otherwise prohibited act or omission. Persons engaged in a business, trade, or occupation in the area who are authorized by the US Forest Service, the State of Arizona, or the County of Gila, its employees, agents, contractors and subcontractors.

That is a really cool story!!! Thanks !!! You had a lot of guts to go after that bear right away...must have been truly scary with it coming straight at you. I have read a few stories of wounded bears, that figured out what was going on, and waiting in the bushes for the hunter. Awesome the front half turned out ok!!! Hopefully you had some help packing it out...

Being out in this heat separates Da Men from Da Boys and puts hair on your chest. If I can handle it and you want to stay home that's your prerogative. By the way if you have not noticed being up at high elevation is actually a few degrees cooler...said with alot of sarcasm.

It will be interesting to see what kind of extremely restrictive firearms regulations are introduced if Obama gets elected for a 2nd term in office. The way it always goes. First term, be conservative so you get re-elected. Second term, legislate like crazy and leave a legacy because no re-election to worry about...

The initial post has fueled alot of good discussion in a lot of directions but really just want to have forest that was scouted open to go hunt, and do it responsibly. Hi Bill - I am definitely on one side more than the other, but I never said it was black and white. We all have a good question here. Where do we draw the line? I feel the line is moving too much in the wrong direction, and options not being explored on the other side. Do I have the answers? Definitely not. But, sometimes answers our found in discussions like this. Cannot say this would be that time, but you never know when a great idea comes along. As far as feeling differently. I do not have a cabin. But I do have a 3 1/2 year old son. My wife and I were just 5 miles from the Sunflower fire camping when we smelled smoke. We thought it was a campfire and did not notice the large black cloud on the horizon. The Forest Service, to whom I'm grateful, did come flying in sirens a blazing, and it took us a few minutes to understand what was going on. I thought someone was hurt. The Forest Service personnel arrived, and were very professional and telling us to leave right away as there was a fire rapidly on its way. If the winds were right it would be on us in no time and they were already suggesting helicopters out. We packed up our camp so fast (< 15 mins) and did not even feel good about doing that. I almost could not find the keys to my jeep and almost left it there. Let me tell you we felt some serious fear driving out of there, knowing that we were on the only road out of there and the fire was less than 200 yds from the road all the way out. So, I have been there, just a month ago. What would I have done if I could not have driven out on that road? Good question...I don't know. Would I have hiked out? Is this smart? Having experience in search and rescue am one of the first to know this is not a good idea from all the countless that walk off in the Supes every year and never come back...I know the trails in that area very well, and I put in 20 miles alone the day of 9/11 in Manhattan. Don't think I would have been a dummy to just hike on out without alot of water and a very good plan ...STOP Stop Think Observe Plan...now with a forest fire coming...what would you do...Damned if you do damned if you don't like you said... Now, in regards to the closure. They closed an extremely, extremely, extremely large area to everyone. I do not think that is fair. Will it solve the problem for now? Maybe. There is always lightning and many things we do not understand. Last year I was up by Kinnikinnick and saw a tree on fire in the middle of fire season. Called in the Forest Service and it became understood it had all the signs of a lightning strike. That tree and the ground around it was like a hole to h*ll, the fire burning stench coming from it and the ground smoldering and smoking. That could have started a h*ll of a fire with just a single wind. My dad was with me and he was shocked...we were scared to be standing there waiting for the Forest Service fire patrol. That was a dry lightning storm by the way, at 7,000 feet, no rain, according to the Forest Service person. Will closure educate people not to start fires? No. Will closures probably get worse before they get better? Unfortunately probably yes. So we better start thinking of some better solutions. I am annoyed like anyone with Forest Service driving up and down the road looking at everyone as though they are fire starters. But, I would take that any day to them closing down the entire forest. I planned hunting that area for a long time, scouted it a lot, and my camping trip was going to be 100% fire free. Neither do I smoke, nor anyone that was going with me. If this happened next year, and instead of them closing the forest, there was a Forest Service feller checking on everyone down the road, I think I would be very happy about that now knowing what it feels like to have the option completely taken away. Would it stop people from hiking in and starting fires in the backcountry? No, but I sure would hope hose doing something like that would be even smarter. Do not take peoples' freedoms away. Make people smarter, not stupider. It is scary how many people do not even know how their food traveled to the grocery store...

+1 It is called slow adaptation...slowly brainwash them and they will fall in line...

Thanks. Results from the DNA tests: http://azgfd.net/art...rd-attack.shtml The headline seems to say opposite from what the body says...

If you had a long talk with a Department employee it certainly must have put you at ease. Glad you have a friend in a high place and have enlightened me and probably others...I would just like to know what the law says, like a lawyer would, that's all. Rather than depend on a phone call. I don't know you, and I don't know your friend in a high place. You are someone with knowledge of the law and a friend in a high place, so I give credence to that. I also give credence to what the letter of the law says, as it is most likely to dissolve any remaining questions.

So what about the anesthesia? Obviously this has been discussed before so what are the pros/cons of doing it that way? Is there more info on this lab in Wyoming? There are some grad students in this country doing some amazing things through programs funded by universities and lives depend on it. Not sure a 14 year old and a brake job is the best analogy but certainly there exists argument between a grad student paid $20-30 an hour versus a professional $150-300 (someone with a resume and 10+ years of experience and an extensive background and proven track record). Think there are many more factors to be considered here and certainly some history behind why Wyoming is being used or has been chosen for this...But, how quick is the turnaround? What is the guarantee of certainty? Etc...

OK, found this, which goes along with what has been said: http://www.azgfd.gov...ublic draft.pdf Which contains the following quote: The annual female harvest limit comprises female bears lethally removed through Department action (e.g., nuisance) and female bears harvested by hunters. It does not provide answers to questions exactly as I asked, but it does state that female bears (nuissance or not) removed by the department are counted against the annual female harvest limit and not necessarily the unit season harvest limit (?). It would be useful to know where in permanent regulations or law this was written... Couldn't find it described in detail in the Spring Regs

Not disagreeing at all 1 uglydude, just trying to understand where it is written. In fact would be quite happy if it is as you and bowhuntaz1 states. Maybe the answer to the following question would sum it up. Is it written somewhere in the regs 1) when a sow is counted against the unit annual harvest limit and 2) when a sow is counted against unit season female harvest limit and 3) when a sow is counted against both?

Crazy about the camper! I've only been bothered by raccoons and skunks here in AZ, and they were darn persistent...my cousin left food out the other night in a bear area and was a bit concerned about that seeing how my tent was just a few feet away. My uncle had a run in with a sow and cubs coming in for food near Mingus Mountain a few years back and it scared him good...do not look forward for when a persistent bear comes in and better be ready to deal

2nd Bear Attack this summer... Bear thought the guy was dead and an easy meal? I guess the first bear attack was in relatively same area (Tonto Village), and they didn't catch that bear (?), so maybe and probably the same bear... http://azgfd.net/art...ar-Payson.shtml This article shows the bite marks, looks like the bear barely scratched the surface...maybe bears like tattoos? http://www.kpho.com/story/18856410/bear-attacks-camper-in-tonto-forest-cabin

Really awesome bear !

Beautiful bear!

Awesome and unbelievable

Tucson John. I like quads, but people run quads like crazy in Four Peaks area. Some care about oncoming vehicle others fly down the road as though they have some sort of pass to drive as fast as they want. It is unbelievable how many of them disregard their safety. The fireworks sounds nuts too. I think instead of trying to regulate stupidity they should educate more about not having unsafe camp fires or make the fines steeper. There is no solve all, unfortunately. But the actions of the stupid shouldn't affect the actions of all of us. We do live in a free country. Every year they pass more and more laws, restricting more of your freedom, many of them regulating stupidity (telling people they cannot own a chimpanzee, for example), taking away more and more of our freedom. Understand the forests are owned by all, but it seems increasingly likely unless this drought goes away soon we will not have access to the forest, period, in the summer. 1uglydude. Guess I cannot retain you? :-) Joke aside, I'm not violating the closure simply referring to those that would have enough money to hire a lawyer, do something like this, camp safely, and get the charge dismissed b/c of high paid lawyer technicality, or take advantage because they are a forest service employee, while the rest of us all suffer. 1) Closed means closed I understand this, or I would not have been so upset to post and protest 2) 23 looks great, I'll keep in mind for future. I live in Phoenix, would love to hunt that area, but base alot of decisions based upon gasoline prices and what is in my wallet. 3) Also understand this, and it's too bad. Many native americans have hunting rights, not privileges (opposite). I guess I mistook our hunting privileges as having the privilege of being able to hunt on state land as a right, when it's not. But usually hunters are considered a little more respectful of the land. Not saying they are. But I did take a hunter education course and maybe a fire safety course should be offered. Of course I understand if this was the case, Roosevelt's management wouldn't be successful as there would be too many poachers, abusers, etc. Just stating...but I do understand. 4) Never said I haven't made it out yet. In fact I put quite a bit of time scouting the area in 22 where I found bear(s), and that is why I was so upset when it was closed. Like alot of people, I've been looking for bears for a long time, was excited to have found one or some, and now this happened. I haven't been hunting bear in summer as long as you but definitely next year I'll anticipate and expect this. 5) You can call it complaining, but I prefer to call it protesting against wanting to use the land and not for ill-purpose or harm...Would you like to be out there hunting possibly now? If yes, then join me in finding out a way we can eliminate the idiots somehow that affect us all. 6) I don't disagree with you. From a legal perspective you're right. How about camping, is that a right? LOL...seriously. I don't know. I assume it is a privilege but would sure be depressed if I was next told I can't camp anywhere and it's not my right, but a privilege that can be taken away no matter how safe of a camper I am. As far as cameras go. I was scouting Mazatzals and there camping when the Sunflower fire hit and evacuated. I have a cam there also and I am now not able to get to it. Sorry to hear about your camera, did you lose it completely? The fire hadn't reached the camping area I was in but it did approx a week later. Drove by the other day and it looks awful. Instead of dealing with a $5,000 fine, I decided to scout somewhere for the weekend. Even if I had $5,000 I still would have complied. Just protesting...I feel like in 20 years many politicians will take away many things due to a stupid few...

Thanks 1uglydude. That sounds great but not how I am reading it so sure hope like you said that I'm reading it incorrectly. I assume these bears were killed in Unit 22. I'm looking at Archery Spring Bear http://www.azgfd.gov/regs/springregs.pdf page 23 (25 of 32) and it says the Archery tag for Unit 22 has Female Harvest Limit of 1. It lists Notes 1, 2, 3, 7. Note 3 says: When the number of female bears equaling the female harvest limit for a particular hunt has been reported killed, by either hunters or the Department, the unit(s) will be closed at sundown the Wednesday immediately following. Hunters are responsible for calling 1-800-970-BEAR (2327) before hunting to determine if their desired hunt unit is still open. The female harvest limit is combined for Unit 35A/35B and Fort Huachuca hunts, and both hunts will close when the female harvest limit is reached for Unit 35A/35B.

If I am understanding correctly, Spring Archery 22 would be closed because of the sow killed by the Department?

Makes sense...not sure why I did not realize this earlier, as usually they refund your money shortly after you are not drawn...guess your email got me excited about the draw results and I forgot how it usually works, as the draw results should be coming out soon. Good luck all

If successful on the draw, does the 7.50 usually come out before the tag fees? Or both at the same time?

Awesome! Sounds like a deal for an endorsement or contract for a TV advertisement on an outdoor sports channel ! :-) Exactly what kind of stand was it? Do not think I am going to go out and buy one but I've often thought about how those curved trees could be a problem...

Thanks all! If I can get to the point where I can actually see a bear in the wild I'll do my best to size him up properly and if he/she appears small and I can determine if it is a female I'll do my best to leave it alone...still working on this part. :-)