bonecollector777
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Posts posted by bonecollector777
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I like the part where he says groups are taking sole credit for stopping the lion ban and that's wrong. . "But we need to give our group the credit and you need to pledge support to our conserve and protect group." WTF?
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Heather, we appreciate that you trust everything these people are saying but you have to see the other side of things were talking about. There are a lot of questions to be answered. When things like whtmtnhunter said come up it just puts more questions on top of things that people already don't trust. Several members of this new group are from the group in 2012 that tried pushing this stuff through without telling anyone. So naturally people question their motives this time around. It's good and great that this group came together to be a part of stopping the lion hunting ban. I know what they did specifically to help but it's far from being able to say they were the sole reason it got stopped. Several reasons came together all of which helped. They did what they said they were gonna do this time around and that's great but now turning over power of our tags to them and just trusting them completely would be a bad idea. I don't care what the subject is it's never a good idea to give one small group of people that kind of power. I understand the need for funds to help in the next fight but boundaries need to be set. No group out there is going to have the budget the HSUS has for stuff like this so a big worry is when 1 million isnt enough what's gonna stop them from saying we need 5 million and start taking more tags? Prove the money is gonna go where they say and their intentions are truthful. They have a lot of prove to hunters of az before we trust them with our tags. And with the 2012 thing they are starting off with even less trust than any other group that could be put together. I truly believe raffle tickets only with limits on tickets per person and non transferrable tags will help them reach their goal. Mix that with donations they can receive and also the money they are gonna make off the banquet to raffle these tags and other items they could raffle off they could bring in a good chunk of change. But if they jump straight to more auction tags now or in the future their intentions will be obvious. Let's wait to see what's said in the meetings and all the info passed out but they have a thin line to walk right now and one shady thing could turn everyone against them. I hope they do the right thing and their intentions are honest. They need to have meeting specific to this subject and not just during already organized groups meetings. Talking all of the board members and commissioners and give ample warning of when those meetings will be so we can show up and ask the hard questions.Dwarcher, I feel you are missing something. If you go back and write down the questions the members here have asked you will see that Jay asks almost all of them. Seriously people quit looking for zebras!
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Interesting. . Little bit scary if the same people appointing the people that decide are the some of the same people pushing this.Wait a minute. Let me see if I have this right.
CAPAZ spokesman stated "For the past year CAPAZ has been working to deny the HSUS signature gatherers from collecting the 151,000 + signatures they needed to qualify their initiative."
The past year.
However at least 2 of the CAPAZ members, Rich Williams VP and Charlie Kellly Treasurer, are also on the commissioner selection board. They are picking, or have picked, the commissioners(including one sworn in last month) that will basically be deciding the fate of this proposal. Am I the only one to see at least somewhat of a conflict of interest here? In the interest of ethics and transparency shouldn't they resign from one or the other position immediately, if not sooner?
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sounds like Utah is the place for you. SFW up there would be right up your alley. But here in az we prefer not to give the rich guy an advantage over the common man.
I cant imagine spending that kind of $ on a tag...doesnt mean Im opposed or against to someone that does...the world will never be on the same level...And I dont see the guy that willing and able to spend 100k...200k on a tag as the enemy...I will still be benefiting from his $ that goes towards something that I love...
you have an extra 50k-100k laying around to throw at an auction tag? I don't. But what most of us do have is an extra $50-$100 to throw at some raffle tags. And so do the rich guys. So that's why I'm all for raffle tags and no auction tags. Everyone on the same level and money still gets raised.I am yet to be convinced that every hunter in the state should have to sacrifice the opportunity to hunt or take their kids hunting in order to get some rich guys money. The facts are that all of us should contribute to the level we are able and should not do so at the expense of another.
I could not in good conscience use my dollars to take opportunity away from another and call it conservation.
How many hunters receive big game permits each year? What if every hunter in the state GAVE more to conservation than they took? But they don't...they are entitled to it right? and conservation just magically happens...I don't know...Myself I could not in good conscience call "sacrificing" a few tags per hunt for conservation and the preservation of what I love a "sacrifice"...If I did I'd call that selfishness...and we're not even "sacrificing" the tags...EVERYBODY would have the opportunity to buy/bid on the tags...that would actually be another...more...a second opportunity to get a tag. I see it as a way to use our assets (deer elk etc.) to protect our ASSets...
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you have an extra 50k-100k laying around to throw at an auction tag? I don't. But what most of us do have is an extra $50-$100 to throw at some raffle tags. And so do the rich guys. So that's why I'm all for raffle tags and no auction tags. Everyone on the same level and money still gets raised.I am yet to be convinced that every hunter in the state should have to sacrifice the opportunity to hunt or take their kids hunting in order to get some rich guys money. The facts are that all of us should contribute to the level we are able and should not do so at the expense of another.
I could not in good conscience use my dollars to take opportunity away from another and call it conservation.
How many hunters receive big game permits each year? What if every hunter in the state GAVE more to conservation than they took? But they don't...they are entitled to it right? and conservation just magically happens...I don't know...Myself I could not in good conscience call "sacrificing" a few tags per hunt for conservation and the preservation of what I love a "sacrifice"...If I did I'd call that selfishness...and we're not even "sacrificing" the tags...EVERYBODY would have the opportunity to buy/bid on the tags...that would actually be another...more...a second opportunity to get a tag. I see it as a way to use our assets (deer elk etc.) to protect our ASSets...
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I've said it a hundred times if its raffle tags only I'm for it 100%. As long as there is a cap on number of tickets per raffle per person. I truly believe they can raise the funds needed with raffles only. What people are scared of is that this is gonna turn into auctioning tags as soon as the group thinks they need more money. Once auction tags enter the picture that's when this group is gonna lose the support from the people. If they can promise raffle tags only have at it. I don't even mind if they take those from the already allotted tags. (VERY LOW PERCENTAGE OF TAGS) No different than trying to be drawn for the tag in the regular azgfd draw except that money can be used to fight HSUS. I'll support that all day long but there cant be any of this open ended stuff that let's there be a chance auction tags will come up in the future.I'm coming late to this conversation and trying to play catch-up. I've got a couple questions....
1. Is everyone saying that Don Peay and SFW (Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife) is the same organization as AZSFWC (Arizona Sportsmen for Wildlife Conservation)?
2. What exactly is everyone afraid of? If these are raffle tags then really it is just a chance to get a tag that I wasn't successful at in the draw.
I'll have more as I wade through all the comments and listen to both podcasts.
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That's kind of how I'm seeing it. When does it stop? When we still lose do we give it up and go back to how it is? Of course not we end up auctioning more tags because we need more money. If it were a set number from the beginning that wasnt too many and couldnt go up and they were all raffle tags I'd be cool with it. No auction tags period.
I completely understand this point of view and it has some merits. However how do we know HSUS will be back in 2 years? There is no way of knowing that first and foremost. Second, why is 5 million the magic number? What if after all this we still lose? Do we get the tags back in 2 years or will they ask for more tags so they can get more money? Obviously they will want more tags, plain and simple. Furthermore, Just because lion hunting is banned does not mean that they overrun the state. AZGFD will still have the ability to kill them when and where needed. California kills hundreds of lions each year even with their ban. As far as Utah, they give out literally hundreds or thousands of auction, raffle, and landowners tags every year as they have alot more game and habitat than AZ does. The one unique thing about Arizona, that separates it from most surrounding states, is that is has no landowner tags and very few auction/raffle tags. This is more about letting the rich guy that flies his leer jet in from Naples, FL the ability to get out of line, pay 30k, and hunt elk every year in the best elk state in the US. The guides and rich non-residents love this proposal as it totally circumvents the draw process. The rest of us get fewer tags and no guarantee it will even make a difference.The bottom line here guys is that they will be back in 2 years to get this on the ballot again. If we don't somehow come to agreement and come up with $5000000 to fight them then we will lose the ability not only to hunt mountain lions and bobcats but to also never be able to go on a premium strip hunt as we will lose the majority of our deer and Elk tags because of mountain lion predation. You could also kiss most of the sheep tags goodbye. This will be worse than the 1994 initiative to ban trapping. We have 10 times the number of coyotes in this state today then we did the day before that passed. Think of how many Deer tags we could have now if we had 10% the number of coyotes. As to the loss of 150 to 200 Deer tags to go towards a raffle, think of it the same as taxes. If you cut the rate of taxes you will increase government revenue due to the stimulus that it creates. What I mean is if we can auction slash raffle off 200 tags, the amount of money that that will generate to conserve wildlife including Predator control, we will effectively have a net increase in tag numbers. Don't believe me? look at the tag numbers today and Utah versus what they were 10 years ago.
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Bonecollector, shhh. . Just go with it and trust them remember? Shedhunter said so. Don't ask questions and don't try and figure out when their meetings are. They know what's best for us even if we don't know it yet. It's the only way.
But back in reality yes you're correct nothing has been sent to anyone regarding meetings nor has it been posted. I'm waiting for the first one to be announced and I'll be there assuming they give ample time to prepare to get there. My mind is not made up yet but these meetings and how they treat our ideas is gonna be the real deciding factor on what their intentions are.
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bro stop while you're behind. I've posted 6 posts on fb and Instagram this year. Your wife has me beat just this week. Regarding this subject I had no idea asking questions and talking to Dave three times yesterday for an hour each time was such a bad thing. Also didnt know it was my responsibility to have to go to their page to find out when meetings are. Oh wait even if I had they didnt post anything about it. I know you've got a little bit of money so I can see why you're all for this tag deal without questioning it but those of us that wont be able to afford these tags like to ask questions about what's going on. All I've done is pass on info regarding what I've heard from Dave and all you've done is comment to guys asking questions that they're idiots and kids that don't understand. Not exactly helpful.
Your on Coues 500 times a day and cant take time to look at their websites for information? What am I missing? You can update your Facebook status and Instagram every minute of the day but cant do a little research into the conservation groups for a sport you so dearly love? Sounds a little narsasistic to me.
Please stop saying well only one person came to the meeting. It helps when the meeting isnt announced hours before and then the meeting is actually moved forward an hour. If they are wanting transparency their two first meeting have been a secret and that doesn't look good starting off.Here is an update from our meeting last night.
I'll give you all a little background and I hope it helps clarify.
When we(ADBSS) and other groups learned the HSUS was going to file for the petition to get the cat hunting ban on the ballot we took action. The plan to combat the initiative was developed by the group of folks that are now on the board of Conserve and Protect. Conserve and Protect was not even an organization when this all came down the pipe many months ago, it was simply a group of guys from miscellaneous organizations putting together a plan to fight HSUS. We, along with some other groups agreed to help with the financial burden of that initial plan. When we had to take action in order to try and fight, we did, and we won. Conserve and Protect hadn't even been formed, but the guys that developed the plan now sit on the board of C&P. . Make no mistake, the folks that now are on the board of C&P had an instrumental part in fighting and beating HSUS.
Moving to today....
Conserve and Protect was just officially(paperwork finalized) started a few weeks, maybe a month ago, not exactly sure. They have now formed their board and are putting together the plan for what's next. They are truly a work in progress and we intend to be engaged in that conversation. They came to our board meeting last night to inform us where they are and what the next step is.
Some organizations have financially committed to the next step but we did not feel as a board that we had enough information and the next step is still in the planning stages. We as a board understand the importance of what comes next. We as a collective group of hunters cannot be as unprepared to fight HSUS or other groups as we recently were. We believe HSUS will be back and we need to have a plan already in place.
I will only briefly try to articulate the next step. It is basically a two stage approach. Please direct your questions about the Conserve and Protect plan to the info email they have provided.
Stage 1 - Raise money to educate the public on the importance of Wildlife Management. This is where the potential use of tag raffles and auctions come in. The funds from the Tags would be used for this cause. The money would not be held within Conserve and Protect rather it would be similar to the HPC process.
Stage 2 - Build resources within Conserve and Protect to fight . Have a group in place that is able to do the things needed that critter groups such as ours cannot do. ADBSS is concerned about Sheep, AES is concerned about Elk, ADA is concerned about deer.... critter groups are not able to fight the "HSUS" type pf political fights, neither is AZGFD.
If you do not know how the plan came together to defeat HSUS, I challenge that you are not involved enough. Only one person showed up last night that doesn't attend the meetings regularly.
Call me with any questions or comments, I hope this information is helpful.
Andy St John
ADBSS President
602-881-0610
I agree that we need a funding source. But we don't need auction tags to get there. Raffling off tags will get the money needed. If there is an auction tag take one of them from the already two per species we have. One can go to the habitat like it does already and one can go to this new fund. As soon as more auction tags are suggested noone is going to want that because that was the whole reason behind the tag grab last time. Now a lot of the same people that did it last time are a part of it again but saying it's different this time. Just hard to trust any of it at this time.
Post up the next meeting that we actually have more than 3 hours to plan to get there and you'll get plenty of people to show up and ask tough questions.
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your adbss meetings are regularly scheduled. I'm talking the meeting they set up just before your meeting. The one they didnt tell anyone about including dave from the ADS.bonecollector777 - Our monthly meetings are on the calendar for the next 12 months and have been for the last 12 months. go to adbss.org I do not know when the next conserve and protect meeting will be. One extra person showed up last night, simple fact.... Raffle only is a viable option I would think but I can't speak for C&P.
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I want to believe these guys are trying to help wildlife but with the two first meetings being so secretive I've got a bad feeling. Even members of this so called board that was formed weren't invited. He seems to be more on the conservative side of it as well. Suspicious. Until they set up actual meetings where people can plan to get there and ask questions and they seem to actually listen to the publics ideas, I'm not for any of this.
I just looked at their facebook page, not a single post regarding any kind of meeting unless I over looked it. So much for transparency!I'd like to know why I get an email every week from azsfw telling me what's going on with the lion,big cat deal. But I received nothing from them on this tag deal????? It would be different if they were transparent about the whole thing, But they are off to a terrible start. Last time around they claimed it was purely a mistake that the legislation was started without sportsman knowing about it?
Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
In general Sportsmen and women are so apathetic that it's embarrassing, I can't wait to see if people actually stand up and be heard. Understand this! If they truly cared about what we think or wanted our support an email would have been sent out, times would not have been changed. This is all short notice and they will have some kind of excuse.
What will we do?
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Here is an update from our meeting last night.
I'll give you all a little background and I hope it helps clarify.
When we(ADBSS) and other groups learned the HSUS was going to file for the petition to get the cat hunting ban on the ballot we took action. The plan to combat the initiative was developed by the group of folks that are now on the board of Conserve and Protect. Conserve and Protect was not even an organization when this all came down the pipe many months ago, it was simply a group of guys from miscellaneous organizations putting together a plan to fight HSUS. We, along with some other groups agreed to help with the financial burden of that initial plan. When we had to take action in order to try and fight, we did, and we won. Conserve and Protect hadn't even been formed, but the guys that developed the plan now sit on the board of C&P. . Make no mistake, the folks that now are on the board of C&P had an instrumental part in fighting and beating HSUS.
Moving to today....
Conserve and Protect was just officially(paperwork finalized) started a few weeks, maybe a month ago, not exactly sure. They have now formed their board and are putting together the plan for what's next. They are truly a work in progress and we intend to be engaged in that conversation. They came to our board meeting last night to inform us where they are and what the next step is.
Some organizations have financially committed to the next step but we did not feel as a board that we had enough information and the next step is still in the planning stages. We as a board understand the importance of what comes next. We as a collective group of hunters cannot be as unprepared to fight HSUS or other groups as we recently were. We believe HSUS will be back and we need to have a plan already in place.
I will only briefly try to articulate the next step. It is basically a two stage approach. Please direct your questions about the Conserve and Protect plan to the info email they have provided.
Stage 1 - Raise money to educate the public on the importance of Wildlife Management. This is where the potential use of tag raffles and auctions come in. The funds from the Tags would be used for this cause. The money would not be held within Conserve and Protect rather it would be similar to the HPC process.
Stage 2 - Build resources within Conserve and Protect to fight . Have a group in place that is able to do the things needed that critter groups such as ours cannot do. ADBSS is concerned about Sheep, AES is concerned about Elk, ADA is concerned about deer.... critter groups are not able to fight the "HSUS" type pf political fights, neither is AZGFD.
If you do not know how the plan came together to defeat HSUS, I challenge that you are not involved enough. Only one person showed up last night that doesn't attend the meetings regularly.
Call me with any questions or comments, I hope this information is helpful.
Andy St John
ADBSS President
602-881-0610
Please stop saying well only one person came to the meeting. It helps when the meeting isnt announced hours before and then the meeting is actually moved forward an hour. If they are wanting transparency their two first meeting have been a secret and that doesn't look good starting off.
I agree that we need a funding source. But we don't need auction tags to get there. Raffling off tags will get the money needed. If there is an auction tag take one of them from the already two per species we have. One can go to the habitat like it does already and one can go to this new fund. As soon as more auction tags are suggested noone is going to want that because that was the whole reason behind the tag grab last time. Now a lot of the same people that did it last time are a part of it again but saying it's different this time. Just hard to trust any of it at this time.
Post up the next meeting that we actually have more than 3 hours to plan to get there and you'll get plenty of people to show up and ask tough questions.
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claim is money will be used to inform non hunters of what game and fishes purpose is and why they need to be the ones to manage wildlife and eventually push for another ballot initiative like a few years ago to give game and fish sole power over management and hsus cant bring a ballot initiative to stop hunting like they tried.How is this "education" going to help anything? This stinks to high heaven.
Seems like tbey should have been doing that atleast a little bit with past money but guess they didnt. Then of course the money will be used to fight hsus and other animal rights groups when they try things like this year. That's what's being said by them but time will tell. If that is truly the purpose and they can fulfill that purpose without giving rich people any more opportunity than they currently have for our tags I'd be ok with it. They can fulfill their goals of money strictly through raffle tags and not doing any auction tags. Charge an extra dollar per ticket or give a few more chances per raffle and you'll have the money an auction tag would generate.
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but that did happen. And he wasnt in deep doo doo. He was actually unpunished and the state of AZ paid him 100k after he sued them.I doubt that would be legal. If he killed the elk and tried to use your tag at all he is in deep doo. The tag came today and it is kind of cheesy. Big size and peel and stick plastic. A sharpie is the tool to sign it.
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I asked that and was told yeah it can be changed but it would take 3-5 years of legislation and we don't have that long. The one thing that does kind of worry me and catch my attention is how they are portraying it as we better do this or hunting as we know it will end. Kind of seems odd that this is the only way to saving it but who knows maybe it is the only way to get the money fast to stop HSUS. still a lot of questions to be answered. Another interesting one was oh hey now that you know about it 5 hours ago were gonna have our question answering session at 6 tonight. Like we can make it down that fast.So can this title 17 be petitioned to change? Has it ever been tried? Or am I just gonna get called dense and a crayola hunter for asking? Honestly, everyone complains about how the money is collected and spent. Has there ever been an effort to try and change it?
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I talked to Dave again and he explained in further detail that basically any money from any tag or fee from azgfd cant be used to fight political fights even if it's against themselves. Dumb but apparently that's the law and the state would get sued. Also all the money from big game super raffle is all allocated to wildlife habitat projects as of right now. Don't know why they couldnt change that though.
He said as of right now they're talking about possibly removing one of the auction tags and turning it into a unit specific auction tag that only can be hunted during a particular season and that money would be able to be given to this new fund. He also said they would auction off 1 lower quality October coues and other lower quality tags and that money would be given to this new fund. Claimed there would never be any new state wide auction tags or any extra high quality hunts auctioned off.
Then regarding the raffe of tags they would definitely have some sort of limit on number of tags. Possibly as low as 1 tickets per person for each drawing. He said none of the tags will be taken out of the regular hunt tag pools.
Just passing on the info and I'm sure Jay will have more answers after the meeting but I'll have to wait til final drafts to believe what they're gonna try and do.
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I don't know Pete and what he has done but sounds like a good guy. BUT that doesn't mean just because Pete has helped wildlife his whole life that we need to agree with or support something he does or agrees with. I'm saying right now if any sort of extra auction tags are brought to the table its gonna get crazy. They can make their money other ways and not involve the rich guys having an advantage. I'm all for the raffle tags with a limit on number of tickets per person if that's truly the best way to raise money to save hunting. I just think there are better ways that don't involve taking tags from regular Joe's and giving them to people with money. Best idea so far is a habitat stamp that's $10-$20 a year and that money goes to this fund.Jay you may need to write it in crayon so these idiots can understand what is actually at stake here. Its amazing every single wild life conservation group in the state is trying to stop HSUS yet no one in the hunting community wants to do anything to help out. Just sad. If we dont do something and help out then hunting will change as we know it in 3-5 years.
What he said!
I've known Pete since the 1970s. He's probably done more for conservation in this state than 99.9% of the members here. He's one of the reasons that more than twice as many hunters get to chase desert sheep now than in the 1970s.
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If there are auction tags involved other than the already two per species then no way I'm ever going to be for it. If they truly just want money for helping hunters fight for their rights they will make plenty off raffle tags with a 5 ticket max per person. Once they bring in more auction tags the only ones for it will be the rich guys. And unfortunately for the Joe blow hunter if money is involved you know game and fish will be all for that so it may just get shoved down our throats whether we like it or not. Especially knowing every commissioner but one already agrees with it.
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Jay, ask them if the making a separate fund like habitat stamp would be possible to get the money they want. We are all worried about losing hunting privileges from HSUS and animal rights groups but just as worried about losing hunting privileges to rich guys.
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If there is the ability to make a separate fund like a habitat or conservation stamp I'm all for that rather than raffling tags off. As long as that fund can go towards the things we need like fighting HSUS. Like I said I wasnt really old enough the last time azsfw did their thing so I need to do more research regarding who was involved with all that last time. According to Dave there are a few of those guys on the board that were involved with azsfw last time but there are many more guys from other organizations like AZ elk society and deer association that wouldn't let those guys push those ideas through. Who knows though.
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Just gonna pass on some info from a conversation I had with Dave from AZ deer society. First off I wasnt really too informed about what was going on the last time azsfw tried their tag grab. But it was obviously a bunch of BS they were trying to pull like Utah. According to Dave what they are talking about this time is something completely different. (Not saying it is or isnt until more details come out). He stated they are pushing more towards a number of raffle tags rather than more auction tags. He stated the money from these tags would be strictly for educating the public on the issues we just fought against this year like the mtn lion ban. With the end goal being they inform enough people to try and get an amendment passed to let game and fish be theonly group that can make decisions regarding wildlife management. (Same thing that didnt pass a few years back) plus the money would be used to fight HSUS and other organizations that attempt things like they did this year.
I asked about why not just raising tag prices or license by $5 and he said money from that goes into the general fund and cannot be used to fight political fights. I'd have to research that more but if that's true there would be no point in doing that.
But if what he said is true regarding using the funds to simply protect future hunting and if they are all raffle tags rather than auction tags it may not be a bad idea. But as soon as they suggest taking tags and auctioning them noone is gonna support that. Also was suggested if it was a raffle there would be a 5 or 10 ticket limit per drawing to avoid rich people buying hundreds of tickets.
Biggest thing was that this whole thing would have to be completely transparent. Who runs it, who does the draw, who gets the money, money can only be used for education and fighting groups like HSUS and no group or individual will make a cent off of the money.
There's still a lot of questions regarding all that and the number of tags they are thinking but if its truly the best way to save future hunting and still avoid giving tags to rich people I could support that but I'm not gonna be for or against it until the details come out.
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Yeah that'll be a no from me. They make plenty of money from current draw tags and auction and raffle tags. Take azgfd's new jacked up new truck budget every year and put that towards public education. I like that they want to keep people educated but auctioning off more animals to the highest bidder isnt the answer. I'll pass my thoughts on to them. Thanks for the info.
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me eitherI've never signed the back of my credit cards.
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That's a every other state except AZ law.Wow I had no idea you were supposed to have it already signed. I always thought it was once you killed. Maybe that's a PA law? Was it always like that?
Sportsmans Input Sought by ConserveandProtectAZ.org-Unit wide Raffle and Auction Tags
in The Campfire
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But what they have done for sure is make it known that their way is the only way to save hunting as we know it. Last I checked in the last thirty years there have been two major attempte to take some hunting and trapping rights. One for trapping in the 90s and one for cat hunting just now. Yes there could be more in the future but youd think we've been battling these groups year after year since the beginning of time. Pete himself said in the last podcast the HSUS has unlimited money and if they want something passed then more than likely they are gonna get it passed. So what do we think $2 million is gonna do against $150 million? When they come back and beat us anyway then what happens?