lancetkenyon

I got a text from a fellow member alerting me to an event hosted by AZGFD in conjunction with the Peregrine Fund California Condor Restoration Project to test out various factory ammunition types in a research and informational effort to educate hunters in the use of non-lead bullets. Allen Zufelt, the California Condor Coordinator w. AZGFD, and Chris Parish, the Condor Project Coordinator w. The Peregrine Fund were out there to represent and coordinate the shooting today. Both guys are avid hunters, conservationists, and sportsmen, and are truly passionate about wildlife. They did a great job of educating and putting on the event. Bringing water, donuts, and some amazing home made breakfast burritos, along with supplying targets, and all ammunition to be tested in a variety of rifles in 7mm Rem Mag and .223. Both traditional lead cup and core types, and a couple different non-lead cartridges. There was a total of 12 shooters who participated today, I think 3 of us with 7 Rem Mags, and the rest with .223s, I think all of which were AR platforms, which is a fantastic sporting platform for varmints and small to medium thin-skinned large game animals. The testing was done shooting 3 rounds of each type of ammo for group size to determine accuracy potential in an attempt to dispel the myth of copper bullets being less accurate as traditional lead core bullets. All were factory ammo available to anyone from local sources, (Cabela's and Sportsman's supplied the ammo). From the cheapest Remington Corelokt to some Barnes TSX rounds, and I recognized some Swift Scirocco in my group, and some Winchester Power Points too. The .223s had a combo of similar rounds. No varmint bullets were used in this testing today. We had a brief meeting about range safety, etc. and a good discussion about the birds of prey lethality rate from ingesting lead fragments from carcasses and gut piles. Since the California Condor is up around the Grand Canyon, they are of big concern. Especially discussed was the topic of the voluntary use of non-lead ammunition on the Kaibab and Strip hunts in 12AE, 12AW, 12B, 13A, 13B. Unfortunately, I thoroughly cleaned all my rifles last weekend. So I had cold clean bores on my rifles today. But my 7RM did fairly well for a clean bore and using factory ammo not shot in my rifle before. We shot for groups, 3 rounds per ammo type. Shoot 2 groups of 3 then let the barrel cool while we changed out targets and repeat w. 5 different types of ammo. I have not seen the data, but results collected showed copper bullets performed on par, if not slightly better, than the jacketed lead bullets. Could be a number for reasons for this, but it is as conclusive as possible with 5 ammo types and 12 shooters. I think I kept everything under 1.5" (the Swift Scirocco w. the cold/clean bore shot), with a three groups sub-MOA. After shooting for groups, we moved on to hydrostatic shock testing of both types of bullets by shooting into six 1 gallon jugs of water in a row to check for penetration. Also, shooting into ballistic gel blocks. I got to shoot for the 7 Rem Mag rounds, and another shooter shot the .223 rounds. It was pretty cool, and very informative. See photos below of bullet conditions after recovery, and the ballistic gel wound channel results. Chris w. the Peregrine Fund lecturing on the Condor, and the issues they face. Allen w. Some of the shooters Shooting at the bench rest range Here is the Barnes 160 TSX recovered from the 5th gallon jug of water Here are a couple views of the Remington 150 Corelokt fired into ballistic gel and the wound channel Note all of the small lead fragments that peel off the bullet during the course of the travel. 21" of penetration at 100 yards, looks like the bullet started expansion at about 2" of penetration. Most hydrostatic shock in the first 12-14" and then a path to 21". I blew the 1st block out of the container and it hit the ground. That is the reason for the brown colored block. The 150 Corelokt as it came to rest at 21" Close up of the lead fragments This is the .223 55gr Barnes TSX bullet ballistic gel test. The light bullet, probably somewhere around 3100-3200fps penetrated about 2-3" deeper than the 150 7mm Corelokt. Then we switched the 7mm test. Jacketed lead 150gr. Corelokt into six 1 gallon water jugs. This is the lead fragments recovered from the water jugs. The jacket totally separated from the lead core and the lead disintegrated, most within the first two jugs. The jacket made it to the 4th jug. Here is the 160 Barnes TSX ballistic gel wound channel A full 32"+ of penetration. Looks like expansion started in about 3-4", with most hydrostatic shock in the first 12'14", then a twisted path like a broadhead the rest of the way through. You can see the twisting path of the petals I am not sure if the first wound channel from the 150 Corelokt helped with the path of penetration, as the 160 TSX was just above the original path. The 160 TSX was poking out the back of the ballistic block after 32" of penetration, and it was facing backwards. The 150 Corelokt jacket from the water jug test on left, the 160 TSX from ballistic gel on right 160 TSX from ballistic gel Corelokt retained weight from water jug test I cut out the 150 Corelokt bullet from the ballistic gel test 160 TSX Weight retention from the ballistic gel test Weight retention of the 150 Corelokt from the ballistic gel test The 150 Corelokt particles recovered from the water jug test Weight retention of the 160 TSX from the water jug test A huge thanks to AZGFD and the Peregrine Fund for putting on the demonstration and information. Take the photos I supplied for what they are worth. My thoughts in closing. We all strive for the most accurate bullets, and best on game performance to cleanly take the game we pursue. Be it ballistic coefficient, bullet construction, accuracy, weight vs. velocity, etc. that sway your choice, for certain areas of the state, we need to consider the use of non-lead bullets to help conservation efforts. Mainly the lead ingestion from birds of prey/raptors. Especially the endangered and protected species. I don't want this to turn into a debate on which bullet is better, which bullets have issues, etc. ALL bullets can fail. For me personally, I have used non-lead bullets in the past with amazing results. I switched mainly due to the less than stellar BC of those bullets, and trying to use the same load for hunting and shooting very long range for fun. Lower BC bullets do not fare as well in the long range game. But I will be starting some load development using some non-lead bullets for my rifles. Those rounds will have their place and purpose, and I will not use them exclusively. But for closer shots (500-700 yards dependent on cartridge), I would consider these a viable solution for high velocity rounds. Look for load development threads once I start. Since Taylor has a 12AE late hunt, we might just get to utilize one this year on game!!!

You can look into Hammer bullets too. They are supposed to be very accurate, and have some heavier offerings, but they require faster twist rates than standard. https://hammerbullets.com/shop/

Bringing this back up after the new thread brought the subject back to light. Taylor wound up killing her muley on her hunt at 637 yards using my 6.5 SLR pushing a 127 BArnes LRX @ 3050fps. The deer litterally dropped in his tracks. DRT. Not even a twitch. The bullet entered the onside shoulder and broke it, shattered a vertebra, and existed the offside shoulder. Lungs were mush.

I think IA Born is a biologist that works with AZGFD? He is very passionate about this subject. I went to a shoot put on by the AZGFD & The Peregrine Fund, and it was informative. http://www.coueswhitetail.com/forums/topic/67198-azgfd-ammunition-testing-event-today/?hl=%2Bperegrine+%2Bfund

I have some old ones of my older daughter, and some others from both my daughters and my nephew. My nephew's first ever dove. About an hour of slaying doves with my two girls Taylor's first ever dove My older daughter, Paige, and I on a goat hunt. It rained 6" this day. Was miserable, and dangerous with mudslides. But we had a blast. Paige with her first elk Varmint hunting The ONLY fish we caught that day....and Taylor gets a 4.5#er.

Most anything in the .223, .243, .257, .264, .277, .284, .308, .338 family. That should about cover it. In all seriousness, anything from a .243 Win to a .300RUM will kill a Coues a long way out as long as YOU can put the bullet into the small vital zone. My only Coues was taken with a 7STW way back when.

Wow. Just wow.

28 Nosler is a 7mm.....on steroids. Pushes a 195 @ 3020-3150fps. Pushes a 180 @ 3080-3200+. Based off the 404 Jeffery case shortened and with 35* shoulder. Beltless magnum, slightly rebated rim. Case length is actually slightly longer @ 2.590" vs. 2.500" for the 7RM. Great round. I am not a gunsmith. I enjoy accuracy and reloading. And I shoot...a lot.

If you need any more, I have about 700 sitting in my reloading desk.

APA Fat Bastard Badger Thruster Hawkins 3 Port Piercision Muscle Brake Southern Xpress

Either can be pushed to run 3100+. I don't see the SAUM giving up 100fps to the WSM. I have a 6.5SS. The black sheep brother to the 6.5 GAP 4S (SAUM). I can run a hot 150 @ 3150fps when I lean on it. That is my long range load. I am working on a 140 @ about the same to save on some case life though. Mine shoots pretty well too. Only 3 shots though w.150 SMKs.

I have never seen a processor trailer up there. Plenty of dispersed dry camping spots. The good ones fill up fast. I usually camp off the 205. Jacob's Lake and Demotte Park (halfway to the North Rim) both have diesel, but they are proud of it. Be prepared to pay $.50-1.00 more a gallon than the Valley. Talk to someone who has hunted in in the past and hope they give you some good starting points. I won't give them out on an open forum for all to see....

1:10" twist?

December hunts can be tricky. I have been on some that are 50s and sunny, or single digit and snow, or 30s and rain. Pack for all conditions and you will be fine. I too wear cotton. I get it. Cotton gets wet, it becomes an evap cooler on you. But, AZ is not MN or WI, where you actually have a chance of falling through a river/creek/pond/bog and getting wet very often. Even trudging through knee to waist high snow is extremely rare. I am a fan of Kuiu gear too. Lightweight, well made, not outrageous expensive for what you get. My layering system: If it is ridiculously cold (I hate being cold): Poly/wool base pants Jean's or Carhartts Kuiu Guide Pants or Yukon rain pants Light or Mid weight wool socks and good boots (usually non-insulated unless it is very cold and we plan on sitting a lot) Poly/wool base layer upper (I have a bunch of Sitka/UA/Military issue) Cotton LS tee Any combo of the following depending on how cold: (all of these are windproof, a huge benefit in my opinion) Kuiu Guide Vest Kuiu Guide Jacket Kuiu Chinook Jacket Kuiu Teton down jacket Kuiu Yukon Rain Jacket Poly fleece or Wool beanie

Wade, If you want some handloads built, let me know.

Hmmm. I can't find the thread now. Might have just sold them.

There is a thread on here selling them. Look it up.

I have two custom rifles (with a 3rd in the works as we speak) from AxisWorks. I have three custom rifles from Phoenix Custom Rifles. All of them are absolute tack drivers. All.of them were built to my exact wants. All of them are beautiful pieces of death dealing artwork.

If it is a 28 Nosler, let me know. I have a lot of info. I have loaded for 8 different ones so far, and have a few more coming up. Charge weights can vary greatly between SAAMI spec and custom chambers too.

7mm 180 Hybrid, 662 yards. Dead bull elk, quickly. Cleanly. Same bullet. 75 yards (max). Probably closer to 60, but it happened quick. Dead elk. Quickly. Cleanly. .308 215 Hybrid, 432 yards. Dead bull. Instantly. Cleanly. .308 215 Hybrid, 210 yards. Dead bull. Quickly, cleanly. You won't get much help from a lot of guys on the Berger Hybrid topic. In my opinion, and just mine, one of the best hunting bullets out there. Heavier jacket than the hunting version, better controlled expansion. It is not Berger's stance just as of yesterday. It has been their stance all along. Same with the Sierra Match King, which kills extremely well also. I could post more photos with those if you want? Why not use a bullet that goes where you want it, and kills extremely well? Just because the box says so? As for "heavy for caliber that don't expand at long range", that is a laughable statement. I killed 2 coyotes at 1365 yards last year with a Hybrid that knocked them both flat, with a blood pattern you could see from 3/4 mile away!

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That sucks! I am on Ocotillo and Higley right now. I will keep my eyes open. Not sure how far away I am as I am a westsider.

I can vouch for this rifle. Break in was performed, and custom ammo is high quality and as accurate as the photo shows. Several groups shot the same. I am pretty sure it killed an old buck last year too.

Weatherby is known for really long freebore. So don't sweat that. As for 3 vs 5 round groups, 5 rounds gives you more of a control group to see what your rifle is actually doing. But you need to shoot them slower to allow barrel to cool better. (But @ 110° ambient temps, good luck with that!)