catclaw

Ernesto, very well said. I pretty much ignore the coyotes on the reservation these days as it is not good enough to justify a trip there just to hunt them. I agree with self managing strategy but I'm afraid that many don't feel the same way. One thing we have to do is police our own. I was really discusted with what I found in 24A this year during my deer hunt. I found the messes left by 2 elk hunters and one bear hunter - all three which would have been very negative reflections on "hunters". I cleaned up two of them and the other one was turned over to G&F for citations. I got after a number of people for riding quads all over creation. It seems that we are creating a generation of very LAZY and unskilled hunters. I wore a pair of boots out on this trip - yet one tank of fuel in my ATV lasted 3-4 outings. Maybe I'm just too old fashioned. God bless YOU Ernesto Dennis

Bob, They tried to go to a guide only system 3 years ago in Unit "D". They had a mutiny on their hands and couldn't get rid of the tags. They won't go to a guided-only system any time in the forseeable future, at least not for deer. I have seen some really good mule deer on the res as well but they are reserved for tribal members. The reservation is still good, but except for elk, I'm afraid the glory days are over. Black river is only a memory of what it used to be. San Carlos lake is nearly dry. The river is always so low that the waterfowl hunting is very sporatic. The drought of the past 15 years has taken it's toll on the reservation as well as it has on the rest of the state. Elk are a lot like cattle and can be managed via artificial water. Deer CANNOT. Deer will spontaneously about their fetus if the browse conditions are not sufficient. This is probably the single biggest reason for the terrible recruitment that we have seen statewide in the past 8-9 years. Elk seem to avoid this and are spreading over the state like ragweed. I see more turkeys on the reservation that anywhere else in the state. I cannot remember a time when I have traveled across "C" and not seen a flock of turkeys. I have seen then flocked up in the winter months to bunches in excess of 300 birds! I once jumped about 300-500 of them in one mass migration off a stock tank as I drove to an elk hunting spot in the pre-dawn hours. It was like ducks taking off from a refuge. The coyote calling on the res is not near what it used to be either. It was nothing to get 8-10 a day. Now I'm lucky to get 3. The long term forcast for the climate changes does not look good. The 20th century was the wettest century in two millenia. The 1980's were the wettest of the 20th century. If history is to be trusted, things won't likely change for the better for another 30 years. Many foresters think that we will eventually lose the pondorosa pine forests and anything below 7000 feet will be replaced by an oak savana habitat. I guess time will tell. I am going to continue to enjoy things as I cannot control them.

BH, I have not had a tag there before but I have spent a lot of time on the reservation hunting other things and scouting it and fishing in many of the stock tanks. I have hunted unit 27 via the reservation for the past 20+ years. My old hunting partner has hunted bear as have some friends. The glory days are over. There are still good bears, but the only advantage is they have a season that allows hunting the prickley pears where some of the AZ units do not at this time. ( specifically 24A) I have seen a couple of tremendous bucks in Unit C and my buddy, who hunts bear and quail in "A" has seen some very nice bucks. It is not easy country to hunt like the 34-36 units in AZ. I saw some decent bucks in A while hunting in 24A this past December. I have lion hunted in C quite a few times and usually that is when I see the bucks. Dennis

I did not buy a San Carlos tag. I got there at 4:00 am this morning and it was all for naught. They are going to have to go to a lottery system. They claim it's first come first serve and then they let the tribal guides buy as many of the few tags as they need. If you wanted the Jan "A" tag you would have needed to be there 24 hours prior- camped out. It was ridiculous. I'm sure all the tags were sold by noon. Dennis

I, like Scott, swore that I would hold out for a big one. I saw about 15 bucks during the hunt but only one would go 100 inches or bigger. I didnt have a chance to move on him as he moved into the trees when the quail hunters started banging away in the distance and I never found him again. I ended up hunting by myself most every day except the opening weekend. The hunting is OK but the frigid weather in camp was a drag alone! I finally went down near the Salt river the last two days and found does and lots of Mule deer but no big ones. I saw 2-points chasing tail! I saw lots of pig herds this year but they were all very small herds which disturbs me. There were more quail than I have seen in many years as well. The country looked to be in good shape overall but the deer numbers and amount of brush made for a very humbling hunt. It was the coldest whitetail hunt I can remember (at times) although I did get snowed out of 27 one year when we got about 10inches of snow one day! Time to concentrate on pigs! I have a tag in 23 and the two youngsters have general tags in 35A. I guess I will go to San Carlos tomorrow and buy a tag for next year so I can hunt

John, I tried to send you an email but it failed. Send me one and I can help you out. Dennis

There is an old man in Safford who has a pasture full of Virginia deer. He has a doe right now with a 100" rack. I think he said it is the second time he has had this happen. I suspect he may have some serious line breeding issues as he can't bring fresh blood lines in due to being grandfathered in. Years ago I snuck up on a pair of bucks in Temporal Canyon (34A). One of the buck clearly had testicles but NO antlers. His partner (straight or gay I can't say) was a 90 incher. Wierder things have happened.

I guess everyone who has spent much time hunting them has an opinion on this. I have had about a 5 year hiatus due to my inability to draw a tag. I have only seriously hunted mulies with a bow as they can reliably be expected to rut in late December whereas the little coues deer is as likely NOT to rut before the first of the year as he is to rut. I have never hunted in 27 ( my favored unit to spend time) when I didn't see mule deer rut activity by Christmas. I have always found bucks gathering does. I have killed a few of them this way too. I have had 10-12 December whitetail tags over the years, maybe more, and if you are counting on the rut to get the bucks moving and not glassing bedding areas, you are going to be likely dissappointed. I have seen whitetails rutting in the Pinalenos as late as March! Never count on the rut as oftimes it never materilizes before the first of the year. I know where a herd of coues live in Unit 1. They always rut by Christmas but alas there is no bow hunt in unit 1 so all we can do is take photos. In the 80's, it seemed that the rut was pretty reliable. As we have gotten into this 10+ years of drought, it is less certain. It SEEMS that nasty weather will trigger some rut activity- whether it is a real rut or not ( does don't come into eostrus just because it snowed last night) the bucks seem to move around and check stuff out- that's what its all about so I don't worry whether they are breeding or not. I have never seen a coues deer buck mount a doe- they are too modest to do it in front of me I have seen mule deer buck mount does however. In my observations, I would say that in CENTRAL Arizona, the mule deer rut any where from 1-3 weeks earlier than the coues deer. I can't say that for Southern AZ as I have never hunted mulies down there. If I had to pick a peak date for the rut it would have to be sometime in the second week of January. I have bowhunted pigs many many years before they put us on a quota for the archery hunt. While pig hunting in January ( Units 22, 23, 24 and 32) I have seen incredible rutting activity. I even called in a 100 buck one time when my bow string got caught in a palo verde tree and I clacked the limb against the tree branch trying to get it loose. He came charging in and My string was hopelessly tangled. RATS. The October hunts will often be productive if you can stand to hike in 90 degree weather- I can't so I don't apply for those tags.

I have had elk hit salt pretty regular. Deer seem to be less cooperative in my experience. The last time I tried, I pack 4 50# bags of salt pellets into a place in the blue- about 11 miles in. I made a hole on two likely places and poured the salt in. I did this first week of October. The deer or anything else never bothered with it at least through the end of the November hunt. I came back the next year and couldn't find any trace of the salt- I don't know if it soaked in or got eaten after stuff finally found it. In any case, I think it would be more of an advantage to position something for a shot from a blind when they were passing through a good area rather than attracting them in per se. By and large, I only hunt coues deer where the last thing I want to do is pack anything heavy in! What about deer cocaine? anyone tried it?

Guys- my hunting buddy just called to say that he killed a buck this afternoon. He shot at a big one but settled for a less big one. Saw several bucks together. Weather cooled back off and things are looking up. I can hardly wait for Christmas (so I can go back out- not open presents). How's it looking out East, Scott? I'll get him to post a photo when he gets back to town. Dennis

I used to hunt them right above the A+ road all the time but haven't since they made the JUG a wilderness. I guess I mostly hunted them on either side of Dutch woman butte- I'm wanting to find them somewhere else this year. I will probably spend some time off Cherry creek road and check that out. I did see some bruiser bucks near Sombrero peak and I may check that out for pigs and hope for a rare treat of a hot buck coming in too.

The recoil difference between the 300WSM and a regular 300 Winny is negligable. The two main differences are the ability to use a short action with a short bolt throw which translates into a few microseconds faster reloading rate and the short, fat powder column which has served benchresters so well in the 6mm ppc and the likes. I personally have shied away from the WSM and Rem SAUM's as I did not like the way they fed in the repeaters that I handled. Unless you handload, these newer magnums are harder to find ammo for that the regular 7mm and 300's. I feel that muzzlebrakes are for extremely speciallized rifles because of their HUGE increase in noise. If you shoot a muzzlebraked rifle without hearing protection, you WILL cause damage to your ears. If you think recoil may be an issue, I would recommend trying a 270 or 280 and see how that feels for her first- this is often about as much recoil as many people can tolerate. Most of what you have read about the short magnums is exactly what you charaterized it as- Hoopla. All this said, If I could find the right rifle that fed and shot a WSM to my liking, I may have one built myself.

To answer your question, if you kill a deer in January, you CAN legally still put in for the fall hunts, ostensibly to get a bonus point. Should you draw a fall deer tag, you may not kill another deer as this will exceed your bag limit for the calendar year. Also, a deer hit with your vehicle and claimed on a salvage permit does NOT count against your bag limit. I hope MoreD was joking. But in reality the fact that you have two tags isn't really something that's tracked as there is no requirement to report deer kills except in the areas where there is a mandatory check in station such as Kaibab or some special hunts like 3-bar used to be. I've been asked to show my unused archery tag before while on a draw hunt so it is not something that you want to abuse and run the risk of losing privelages for a period.

Hey all, I had a ball hunting in the snow we had in 24 but the fog really made glassing tough on Friday. I found quite a few deer but not any whoppers. Found one set of lion tracks in the snow and had a ringtail raid my icechest! Found elk and mule deer right in with the grey deer. I'll give it a go again next weekend. Dennis

I will agree with Ernesto. I used to hunt with a 22-250 and killed a number of both whitetail and muleys with it. Then one day I hit one a little too far back. The deer ran off. I got a VERY lucky second shot at a running deer about 400 yds away and broke his back. He was in rough country and still very much alive when I got to him. The first bullet had hit the liver and done very little damage. I was using 60 Nosler solid bases. That same shot with my 300 WBY would have been quickly fatal. The 22-250 is a great rifle for an expert marksman at relatively close ranges. It's not a 300 yd deer rifle. It just doesn't have must sting left at that range. Why risk a very difficult to draw tag by uses a very mediocre caliber. I have hunted these little deer a LOT and have seen upwards of 40 of them killed. I think one is far better off with a 270 class rifle than a 22 caliber. I have seen them lost to 25-06's on two occasions and this isn't usually considered too small. I have never seen one lost to a 300 mag. Doesn't mean it doesn' t happen but it's nice to put them down. On a Mexico hunt a few years ago, There was one 270 and all the rest were various 300 mags. David Millers 300 Wby, my 300 WBy a couple of 30-378's and a 300 winnie. These were all people who were repeat customers and knew what worked when you put several thousand $$ on the table for a Mexican hunt. Nope, I wouldn't recoomend the 22's unless you have a detached retina or something that absolutley rules out any recoil...

I located 13 bucks Saturday while scouting and found already significant activity leading up to the rut. I watched does urinate in front of buck and the bucks would dash over and check it out then chase- or not chase the doe(s) around. These were the smaller 3points and the only shootable buck was with 2 other bucks and not quite ready to play- They may actually rut this year before the year is over!!!!

I used to hunt 22 all the time. Chased a 125 class buck in there 2 years in a row. Now I only hunt pigs in 22. There are still some good places but it's not like it used to be. A buddy of mine killed a nice OLD buck during the 3-bar hunt of yesteryear that weighed 125# cut in half and 3 days old! Biggest bodied coues I ever laid eye on. My heaviest one was only 90# but much younger.

Who has Coues tags yet to fill this year? I drew a Dec tag in 24A- So far I haven't seen any huge buck, but I have seen a lion?