StickFlicker

Instead of making a third post on the exact same topic, try actually reading the first topic. The hunter your are talking about chimed in and offered to help you!!

Congratulations Brian. You now have a chance to join the very short list of those that have taken both species in Arizona!

Congratulations! 25 points and counting, myself.

I think the town of Roswell, New Mexico, was the first one to try this back in 1947. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswell_UFO_Incident

While I completely agree that mass has everything to do with scoring antelope, there are 12 measurements on an antelope. Now that's simple math. Two are length, 8 are mass, and 2 are half mass and half length (prongs). Therefore, 10 of the 12 measurements have a component of mass in them.

This particular shoot is perhaps the largest in the state, and is only done once per year. However, there are 3D shoots hosted by various organizations nearly year-round. In the winter they will be held in the desert, and in the summer they will be held up north. A number of the archery shop websites have calendars of the various shooting events held around the state.

You are likely 100% correct, unless you are very young or they change the rules again (for example increase percentage of tags that go to max point holders to go through them faster).

Woody, Your comment about the way they score horns in Africa is not correct. I'm not aware of anywhere in the world where water dispacement is used as an official scoring system. There have been hunters that think it is a good idea, but I don't believe anyone actually practices it as a records system. There have been other conversations on the topic, so I won't rehash them too much here, but it is really a totally impractical idea. Sure it sounds good in theory, but.... The size of a tub of water would have to be huge to measure elk, moose, and many other animals. Can you imagine too many measurers that would want to have those on hand? Many hunters don't get their animals scored until they have been mounted. There would be no way to submerge just the horns or antlers without the ears, etc. getting submerged and causing excess displacement. Can you imagine how happy a hunter would be if you had to submerge his mounted head in water? Even under perfect circumstances, the difference in the amount of water that would be displaced between a 90 inch antelope and a 65 inch antelope would be negligible. A small horned animal like a mountain goat would be even less. Africa actually uses one of two measuring systems most commonly, both of them seriously flawed in my opinion. SCI and Roland and Ward both take very few measurements to determine an African specie's trophy's score. I'm not an expert on them, but the basics are pretty simple. Sometimes just the length of the two horns are added together (with no mass scores at all), but sometimes a base circumference is added as well (nothing along the rest of the length of the horn). Therefore, there are a lot of ties in the records. Scoring systems that are made up of mostly or entirely just the length of the horns cause females to be the top scoring records in many species, encouraging trophy hunters to kill females rather than males. Gemsbok, eland and many other African species have females as their world records since the females of many species commonly have longer horns than the males (although normally thinner). It's my understanding that even the world record Cape Buffalo is a cow rather than a bull. I just don't think that encouraging the killing of females is a sound basis for a records program. Mike Cupell is one of the most experienced scorers in the state, and I would be fairly certain he followed the rules as set out by the B&C Club. Perhaps there's a misunderstanding somewhere? I didn't understand everything you were trying to say, especially your question at the end. But if you are under the impression that the length of the prong measurement is changed by where it appears on the horn, that's not truely correct. It would likely change it a small amount, but not by the several inches that you state. The prong is measured in the exact same manner no matter where it occurs on the horn. The only reason the length of the prong itself might be different between one location and another is because prongs are measured from the center of the back of the horn, around the horn and accross the top of the prong to its tip. If the horn itself is thicker at one point versus the other, it will change the length of the prong a small amount, certainly not 2 1/2 inches. Additionally, the quarterly mass measurements are never taken "in" the prong. They are always taken either above or below the prong, depending on where the prong occurs. I really didn't understand your comment about my prefering prongs to mass. Mass is by far the most important thing for a high scoring pronghorn, making up some or all of 10 of the 12 measurements included in the final score. Hopefully this made sense to you, but if not, feel free to try to ask your question(s) again. Marvin

Outstanding story! I especially like that you included the parts about your lack of motivation, which most of us likely suffer from at times. Congratulations! I'll bet your story will motivate many others that read it.

Interesting scoring system you have there, TJ. It's a very nice buck, but there's no way it's breaking 90. A 90 inch buck needs to be outstanding at everything, length, prongs and mass (especially mass). This buck is nice at everything, but he's not exceptional at anything. His length is pretty good and probably his best feature, but it's not "exceptional". His mass above the prongs is weak. His prongs are average. For the average hunter, that would be a great buck to take. If you're looking for 90, keep glassing.

He's really not all that big, and might not even score 70. If it was your first buck, he's certainly a nice representative of the species, with nice horn shape. But, for Arizona, he's just average in most areas.

Woody is correct. The B&C rules state that if the third circumference measurement falls on the prong, take the measurement immediately below the prong (before swelling of the prong begins). Therefore, it is possible, although far from common, that a buck could have three measurements below the prong. Pope & Young does not allow that. They require that two measurements be taken above and two below the prongs. I personally prefer the P&Y rule as is seems to make more sense to me. Why reward a buck for having high prongs, and cause it to be listed above bucks that have actually grown more horn, just because the prongs are high? Are high prongs something that hunters seek as a positive attribute in pronghorn? I think mass, overall length and prong length are all more important to the average hunter than where the prongs occur.

I agree with 200" Mulie. It is NOT legal to use a crossbow during anything except General (firearms) seasons. A crossbow is NOT a bow.

Glad that it all worked out for you. I had this happen a few years ago, as well. A photo of the mount of the antelope in my avitar was used by Pope & Young for their new logo, which appears on every page of their website. While they didn't ask permission, or mention it to me in advance, I think I probably "granted" them permission to use it wherever they like when I submitted the trophy for entry to the program. I just took it to be an honor.

Unless he drew his 3rd, 4th or 5th choice hunt.

I can't think of any way that should be able to occur.

I logged in during the last 2 hours just to see if the system was sluggish, and it seemed to be working fine.

MDArea, Each application, regardless of how many individuals are on it, receives one random number assigned to it when you apply. If your application also has an average of one bonus point, exactly as Flatlander correctly described it, you would receive one more random number for your application. This would give your application a total of two random numbers (still only one total bonus point). The drawing process will take into consideration ONLY the lowest of the two random numbers when the drawing is held. Vowell, I can think of no scenario wherein there could be leftover tags for your second choice, and you didn't draw it (unless of course you drew your first choice). Now, it IS entirely possible for you to get your second choice, and there could be leftover tags of your first choice after the drawing. It's a flaw in the system which the G&F Dept. has shown no interest in fixing. Can you give more details of your situation?

I realize that yours is just a hypothetical example, but in reality (and as surprising as it may be) only 10 of the max point holders are non-residents (177 residents).

I'm sorry, I took your post to mean that only those hunts (10 out of the 42) were "eligible" for the 20% pass. If you are stating that only 10 of the 42 hunts were actually impacted by having tags issued to max point holders, that is something different. I will take your word on that. And you are certainly correct that many permits will go to applicants that are not in the max point pool, and many max point holders will go without a permit (for at least their 23rd consecutive year....). Good luck to all!

Becker, I agree you are correct on most of your explanation, although your theory of having more permits left for the 1st and 2nd choice guys if the max point guys all put in for the same hunts is not possible. The "max point group" is generally thought of as those that currently have 24 points, however, it doesn't HAVE to be. There are nearly 200 people that currently have 24 points, but let's say that in your example every one of them applies for the same first choice and no second choice, and let's say that hunt had 2 permits. Once those two permits are gone, the rest of the 20% bonus pass permits (approximately 19 permits) would NOT go into the random drawing, they would simply drop down to those people with 23 points and continue, then 22 points, etc. until all of the 20% permits were issued, just like they would if it were deer, elk or antelope tags in a particular hunt number. If permits are still available from the 20% allocation, then the next lower bonus point category is looked at; and so on, until all of the 20% allocation is issued or until all applications with 1 or more bonus points are read. Additionally, 654321 is incorrect. ALL sheep hunts are eligible for permits in the 20% bonus round, and potentially every single permit in ANY given hunt could all go in the bonus round (and commonly does in the most sought after units). Tony's analysis of what would happen if a unit contained 3 tags is not correct even for other species like elk and antelope. A hunt must have at least 5 permits before the 20% bonus pass would apply (for all species except sheep and buffalo).

There are at least a few hundred people at each of the higher point pools. Last year 24 people were drawn and left the max point pool. If you have 20 bonus points, there are approximately 850-900 people that have more points than you, and a few hundred that have the same amount as you. If an average of 20-25 people are drawn out of the top point level each year, you can do the math on how long before you are in that max point pool.

If you are interested, the Bowhunting in Arizona record book has a page dedicated to list those that have taken a fox with a bow (as well as a page on coyotes and one on bobcats). The book currently shows less than 40 bowhunters that have entered a fox to the book. If you are interested in listing yours (shows hunter's name and year taken), contact me for entry information. It just requires you to fill out a Fair Chase Affidavit and mail with a check for the $20 recording fee and a photo.

No, this one's from Africa. A non-resident Oryx permit in New Mexico costs 3 times what I paid to kill this one in Africa, and NM doesn't give you enough time to try to kill one with a bow. It would be very difficult to close the deal with a bow on White Sands in 2 days. Sorry the picture shows up so dark on this website, but it was a little over 35 inches I believe. Good luck on your hunt.

And for those of you that do have max points (24), and insist on applying only for top tier units like 22, there are 42 people left in the pool that applied for that hunt last year that also have max points. That means you could have as long as 14 more years (42/3) before drawing that tag even in the max point pool. That is assuming other max point holders don't decide to change units and apply for that hunt and make your wait even longer....