krp

Minox, Doug at Cameraland has them for $549. Kent

Tyler, just fantastic, congrats to all of you. Not meaning to side track your post but I used to do alot of work in Payson in the 90's. Your Grandfather, Kenny did our backhoe work and Eddie was on the job often delivering concrete. Met your dad a few times and he gave me a elk tip that worked out when I was taking a newbie out in an area I didn't know well. Good folks and good memories all. When Kenny or Eddie were on the job we had a hard time getting any work done, talked hunting all the time. Called Kenny once and he answered the phone whispering. I teased, "What the heck you doing sleeping this time of day". He says," I'm sitting on a mountain looking for whitetail". I got on to him for answering the phone and he said," I seen it was you and I'm not seeing anything anyway". Best wishes to you and your entire family. Kent

Great story and terrific job, congrats. Kent

Very nice, congrats. I understand the satisfaction after all the hard work on that hunt, totally different feeling than on a rut hunt. I've had that same hunt before. Waiting for my last rut hunt in my life then going back to that one. We hunt the same areas. That hunt and bull will always be special to you and bring a smile to your face anytime someone mentions 23 late archery. Again, very, very nice, thanks for putting a smile on my face. Kent

TJ, keep up the good work. When I was young I didn't really understand why some of the older guys were willing to spend their hunting time helping me rather than just concentrating on their own hunt. I do now. I would rather help someone achieve their goal rather than just kill another animal myself, If it wasn't for those guys I wouldn't have had the great hunting life I've had, the old traditions must continue. If there are those that think I'm giving up other's honey holes. Well there would accually have to be others hunting these areas. The only person I've ever seen is a ranch hand on a horse checking cattle and the only footprints are my own from previous scouting/backpacking trips. Times may be changing in our hunting culture, I guess some of us are stuck in the past, so be it. Good luck to you also, see ya out there. Kent

Somehow I missed this thread earlier. Anyway, if you don't mind hiking or backpacking into areas and would like to hunt undisturbed deer, I have a few places like that in 22 (Mazatzals) and 24B (Superstition Wilderness). I will be going out in Jan and if you want to glass/discuss coues you're welcome to come along. I've come to that time in my life to start 'passing on' hunting areas that I've kept to myself to the younger generation. Paying back those that helped me and did the same for me years ago. PM if you're interested. Here's one of my favorite areas in 22. Kent

If he spent millions then he hunted more than anybody I know in this state, that would represent a few Gov tags and a ton of regular hunts. There's always another millionaire waiting in the wings if you falter. John McClendon has a good reputation, I've never met him but we have mutual friends and I believe them when they speak highly of him as a person. Shawn Wagner is also a good person, lives in the area, friendly in the field, and has no problem coming to your camp at night to check your bear and shoot the breeze if you know someone with his cell #. What lie could Shawn have told them? Those aren't houses right there, go ahead and keep chasing and shooting that bull till you kill him. I hope that wasn't their court defense, putting the blame on someone else when you were doing something stupid in the first place is just adding more stupid. G&F isn't going to look kindly on it either. I just don't understand the shooting in a subdivision decision, even if they stayed 441yds away. Waking people up with gunshots and chasing an elk around their back yards. Bad PR for all hunters. They should have just admitted it was stupid, got out of hand and not fought it in court so they could get the bull back. Probably would have only had to pay a fine and lost the animal. There are times I go into town while hunting to eat for a break from my cooking. People see the camos and ask. "What are you hunting"? "Elk" (ect) I say. "We have a bunch in our neighborhood, they eat the plants and trample everything, come over and kill some". they say. My answer is always, "I don't think someone wants me gutting an elk in their back yard under the swingset". it's a joke but also true. I don't think those people in Lakeside understood the joke they witnessed. Kent

Great story, made me wish I was there, very nice deer. hopefully your wife can get back and enjoy her own hunt. Kent

I skin hanging from the neck. Kent

Just my general thoughts on this subject. My first thought is, yes I would like to help. But the legal liabilities make it very risky. As much as I would like to help, knowing the cost of ammo now, it would be great to help a fellow hunter out. Just not smart being the loader for someone else's gun. What I would be willing to do is. If they were new to reloading and didn't have equip, working on my equip and components, making known loads for my guns until we were both comfortable with their ability. Then working on ammo for their guns. Would be a long process. If a newbe bought equip and needed help setting up and starting I would gladly do it the same way as above just with their equip. Still a long process. If an experienced reloader needed to use my equip to load their own that would be fine. As much as I would like to help, I would not just load for someone else outside of family. Kent I forgot to add, BATF has strict laws concerning reloading for any kind of profit. Not a road to go down.

Good read Cory, thanks for posting. Kent

Gamehauler gave you the #1 addvice, spot on. The #2 is after you get your eqip find someone to help get you setup and walk you through it. I live in Mesa and would happily come over and help, I did it on my own but a little help would have stiffled the fear I had when I pulled the trigger the first time. A basic kit will get you started and you can add other equip if you think you need it. I'm taking my son-in-law on his first coues hunt and leaving in a little bit, if I can help you out let me know. Kent

Go to the Barnes website and click on, TECHNICAL, click on load data. They list H4350 as their most accurate load. I just loaded 15 loads with 57 grns and the 110 grn TSX, shot great I'm not messing with it. Didn't crono yet. Kent

Very nice, hard work before the hunt always seems to pay off. Kent

Here's a big two I shot 2 years ago. After glassing for a couple hours I saw a small buck cross over a saddle at 420 yds, could see this guy in a cedar and that he had decent width and mass. Couldn't count tines as he had his head mostly in the cedar. I set up quick, I would only have 15 yds to shoot him before he went over. He steps out and I quick check it's him in my scope and shoot. When I walk up to him I'm suprised he's a two point, was a great backpack hunt and a unique buck. Kent

Blood just adds to the camo effect, can get stinky though. Kent

Congrats on a great deer. You did a great job! Peppersause is where I killed my first coues years ago, great memories. Your dad and Chris are cool guys, I know you'll have a great elk hunt. Kent

Prayers sent for Chris, hope for a full recovery. Kent

Went crow hunting this weekend, found 3, 2 cows and this guy. Too bad for who ever lost him, the bears left thank you signs everywhere though. And yes everything is still there. Kent

Cory, PM sent back at you. Kent

It's even illegal to pick up a shed on the reservation. This bull was in the res about 400 yds. There is a spring just in the forest and the bedding areas are just in the res. a very remote and unique spot. Sat I watched over 60 elk cross over the fence to bed in the res, I know this area well, they cross every morning and afternoon. From the direction he was laying, he was moving from the fence to the bedding area, didn't make it. I know it was a longshot but I was hoping someone would come forward and claim they shot this bull. If they could describe the area good enough I would pull the head over to the fence so they could lift it over. I can legally be in the res another week and a half. The law reads you can't pick them up, dosen't say you can't drag it. I know thats splitting hairs but I wouldn't feel bad about doing it. Kent

Amanda, unfortunately this bull is just out of reach of G&F, crossed over the res fence and died. Probably why he was never recovered. I wish the state could recover the horns but no go. Kent

Saying the Spider Bull is legit, let's look at the reasons most people are rubbed wrong with this deal. Because of ego, ignorance or both, Mossback decided to go public early in the summer with this story. The mistake they made was thinking the emotional response they would generate would be positive for them. They created a personality, gave him a name, guessed his score, publisized a video portfolio, gave him an autience. It got people asking questions about tactics used, fair play and they didn't understand that most people will root for the underdog. In a story of the one against the many, unless the one is evil he will be the hero. This did throw a big spotlight on the Spider bull, but also on themselves and a tactic being used in the hunting industry. Corporate hunting, posse hunting, gang hunting, whatever you want to call it. Corporate hunting consists of some or all of these things, Multiple people in multiple locations hunting for a specific size or individual animal without a client present during hunting season. Constant communication with cellphones, texting, radios. Evenings spent in meetings or on the phone accumulating info for the next days hunt, and giving instructions. Finders fees. Preseason flying. Video portfolio. These are just a few examples and not directed at one specific outfutter, but is a direction a lot of outfitters are going. Corporate hunting is neither good or bad, just business. Most of us that have never hired a guide, don't have an issue with guided hunts. You and your guide, or guides, out hunting is not any different than having your buddies take you to their honey hole and killing an animal. Hiring a team to spread throughout the countyside and put out the call when the target is found is different. For each additional spotter, scouter not with the client takes away some of the glory of the hunt, eventually success is watered down to nothing. Sometimes there is a standing finders fee for anyone with info resulting in success. Most if not all outfits started corporate hunting by having family and friends becoming involved for the companionship we all enjoy from hunting, the extra eyes didn't hurt either. Some outfitters have taken this and designed a profitable business blueprint and risen to the top of the pack, at the core I imagine it's still about doing something they love with family and friends. The uneasy feeling is not about money spent, or how nice the outfitter is, or who the client is. It's about the feeling that the spider bull wasn't treated with fair play. Most people only see a hunter hiring a team of professionals, using a special tag that allows him to hunt with any weapon at any time giving them an unfair advantage over other hunters with bows and the animal itself. They started this saga and opened themselves to public opinion, the majority is negative. I don't think they had any idea. I'm mostly irked by by the fact that they thought I was stupid enough to be played for profit. That's what this was really about. It's not about how much was spent to kill a world record bull, but how much can be made on it. We've all fantasized about catching the WR bass or killing the WR elk, it would be like winning the lottery money wise. Most of us would do it the traditional way and not have it watered down and deserve everything we got. Now it's easy to see why the spider bull was promoted so early, to maximize profits. I bet there was a lot of wringing hands and knashing of teeth in the board meeting after he missed at 190 yds the first time he shot at the spider bull. Get out your credit cards because spidey mania is coming, gotta have that 19.95 video, that t shirt for my wife that has a pic of spidey with the words, BIG RACK OF THE WEST, on it. That'll make her laugh so hard I'll be able to see all four of her teeth. Where did I put that spidey beer cozy? I love it when I go on Barnes bullets website for info and get to see spidey's story again, and read how great a hunter that denny guy was. I wouldn't even be thinking of this stuff if it hadn't been shoved in my face two months early, and obliviously I'm not the only one. On one side you have those that don't understand the negativity and crying, jealousy, money envy, horn envy. On the other people not liking the ending of the story they've been following for months crying, big money, assassination, disgusting. Of course the truth is somewhere in the middle. Corporate hunting brings up alot of issues that we as hunters need to address. Here's one to think about, what legal recourse should I have if a outfitter or guide who represents a client or clients for the same hunt intinualy or unintinually disrupts my setup on an animal without the client present. With more paid scouters during the hunt, I can see this becoming a big problem. This could also be a problem with offering an open finders fee. Kent

I want to thank Redman for letting me share his hunt with him. He's a dedicated hunter that made a great pressure shot, and that can't be overstated, someone I hope to hunt with again. I'll call you soon, just got back. Thanks again. Kent

kphunter, the choice for me was between the vipers and the bruntons. I didn't like the vipers at all and was suprised with the bruntons, I didn't think they would work either. The zeiss I only looked at in the store so not a real comparison, I did read the same review Red Rabbit posted and just didn't think the 45mm was big enough. I'm always on the search for a 15 that will work for me. In the last 10 years I've sat behind docters, steiner senators and big horns, vipers, bruntons and pentax. I would like to try the old zeiss and fuji if I can find some. The best for my eyes have been the steiner big horns. The bruntons have performed great for elk and antelope so far but I won't be able to test them on coues till after my buddies archery bull hunt, I'll know then if they are worth it or not. I really bought them for extras when my family goes with me on backpacking scouting trips for coues, They've gotten into playing where's Waldo. I like them so much I've been using them on my own hunts this last month. I don't know if any of this helps anybody but maybe it does. I've had a member here ask about the pentax I offered so for now they are on hold for them. Kent