krp

Gamehauler gave you the #1 addvice, spot on. The #2 is after you get your eqip find someone to help get you setup and walk you through it. I live in Mesa and would happily come over and help, I did it on my own but a little help would have stiffled the fear I had when I pulled the trigger the first time. A basic kit will get you started and you can add other equip if you think you need it. I'm taking my son-in-law on his first coues hunt and leaving in a little bit, if I can help you out let me know. Kent

Go to the Barnes website and click on, TECHNICAL, click on load data. They list H4350 as their most accurate load. I just loaded 15 loads with 57 grns and the 110 grn TSX, shot great I'm not messing with it. Didn't crono yet. Kent

Very nice, hard work before the hunt always seems to pay off. Kent

Here's a big two I shot 2 years ago. After glassing for a couple hours I saw a small buck cross over a saddle at 420 yds, could see this guy in a cedar and that he had decent width and mass. Couldn't count tines as he had his head mostly in the cedar. I set up quick, I would only have 15 yds to shoot him before he went over. He steps out and I quick check it's him in my scope and shoot. When I walk up to him I'm suprised he's a two point, was a great backpack hunt and a unique buck. Kent

Blood just adds to the camo effect, can get stinky though. Kent

Congrats on a great deer. You did a great job! Peppersause is where I killed my first coues years ago, great memories. Your dad and Chris are cool guys, I know you'll have a great elk hunt. Kent

Prayers sent for Chris, hope for a full recovery. Kent

Went crow hunting this weekend, found 3, 2 cows and this guy. Too bad for who ever lost him, the bears left thank you signs everywhere though. And yes everything is still there. Kent

Cory, PM sent back at you. Kent

It's even illegal to pick up a shed on the reservation. This bull was in the res about 400 yds. There is a spring just in the forest and the bedding areas are just in the res. a very remote and unique spot. Sat I watched over 60 elk cross over the fence to bed in the res, I know this area well, they cross every morning and afternoon. From the direction he was laying, he was moving from the fence to the bedding area, didn't make it. I know it was a longshot but I was hoping someone would come forward and claim they shot this bull. If they could describe the area good enough I would pull the head over to the fence so they could lift it over. I can legally be in the res another week and a half. The law reads you can't pick them up, dosen't say you can't drag it. I know thats splitting hairs but I wouldn't feel bad about doing it. Kent

Amanda, unfortunately this bull is just out of reach of G&F, crossed over the res fence and died. Probably why he was never recovered. I wish the state could recover the horns but no go. Kent

Saying the Spider Bull is legit, let's look at the reasons most people are rubbed wrong with this deal. Because of ego, ignorance or both, Mossback decided to go public early in the summer with this story. The mistake they made was thinking the emotional response they would generate would be positive for them. They created a personality, gave him a name, guessed his score, publisized a video portfolio, gave him an autience. It got people asking questions about tactics used, fair play and they didn't understand that most people will root for the underdog. In a story of the one against the many, unless the one is evil he will be the hero. This did throw a big spotlight on the Spider bull, but also on themselves and a tactic being used in the hunting industry. Corporate hunting, posse hunting, gang hunting, whatever you want to call it. Corporate hunting consists of some or all of these things, Multiple people in multiple locations hunting for a specific size or individual animal without a client present during hunting season. Constant communication with cellphones, texting, radios. Evenings spent in meetings or on the phone accumulating info for the next days hunt, and giving instructions. Finders fees. Preseason flying. Video portfolio. These are just a few examples and not directed at one specific outfutter, but is a direction a lot of outfitters are going. Corporate hunting is neither good or bad, just business. Most of us that have never hired a guide, don't have an issue with guided hunts. You and your guide, or guides, out hunting is not any different than having your buddies take you to their honey hole and killing an animal. Hiring a team to spread throughout the countyside and put out the call when the target is found is different. For each additional spotter, scouter not with the client takes away some of the glory of the hunt, eventually success is watered down to nothing. Sometimes there is a standing finders fee for anyone with info resulting in success. Most if not all outfits started corporate hunting by having family and friends becoming involved for the companionship we all enjoy from hunting, the extra eyes didn't hurt either. Some outfitters have taken this and designed a profitable business blueprint and risen to the top of the pack, at the core I imagine it's still about doing something they love with family and friends. The uneasy feeling is not about money spent, or how nice the outfitter is, or who the client is. It's about the feeling that the spider bull wasn't treated with fair play. Most people only see a hunter hiring a team of professionals, using a special tag that allows him to hunt with any weapon at any time giving them an unfair advantage over other hunters with bows and the animal itself. They started this saga and opened themselves to public opinion, the majority is negative. I don't think they had any idea. I'm mostly irked by by the fact that they thought I was stupid enough to be played for profit. That's what this was really about. It's not about how much was spent to kill a world record bull, but how much can be made on it. We've all fantasized about catching the WR bass or killing the WR elk, it would be like winning the lottery money wise. Most of us would do it the traditional way and not have it watered down and deserve everything we got. Now it's easy to see why the spider bull was promoted so early, to maximize profits. I bet there was a lot of wringing hands and knashing of teeth in the board meeting after he missed at 190 yds the first time he shot at the spider bull. Get out your credit cards because spidey mania is coming, gotta have that 19.95 video, that t shirt for my wife that has a pic of spidey with the words, BIG RACK OF THE WEST, on it. That'll make her laugh so hard I'll be able to see all four of her teeth. Where did I put that spidey beer cozy? I love it when I go on Barnes bullets website for info and get to see spidey's story again, and read how great a hunter that denny guy was. I wouldn't even be thinking of this stuff if it hadn't been shoved in my face two months early, and obliviously I'm not the only one. On one side you have those that don't understand the negativity and crying, jealousy, money envy, horn envy. On the other people not liking the ending of the story they've been following for months crying, big money, assassination, disgusting. Of course the truth is somewhere in the middle. Corporate hunting brings up alot of issues that we as hunters need to address. Here's one to think about, what legal recourse should I have if a outfitter or guide who represents a client or clients for the same hunt intinualy or unintinually disrupts my setup on an animal without the client present. With more paid scouters during the hunt, I can see this becoming a big problem. This could also be a problem with offering an open finders fee. Kent

I want to thank Redman for letting me share his hunt with him. He's a dedicated hunter that made a great pressure shot, and that can't be overstated, someone I hope to hunt with again. I'll call you soon, just got back. Thanks again. Kent

kphunter, the choice for me was between the vipers and the bruntons. I didn't like the vipers at all and was suprised with the bruntons, I didn't think they would work either. The zeiss I only looked at in the store so not a real comparison, I did read the same review Red Rabbit posted and just didn't think the 45mm was big enough. I'm always on the search for a 15 that will work for me. In the last 10 years I've sat behind docters, steiner senators and big horns, vipers, bruntons and pentax. I would like to try the old zeiss and fuji if I can find some. The best for my eyes have been the steiner big horns. The bruntons have performed great for elk and antelope so far but I won't be able to test them on coues till after my buddies archery bull hunt, I'll know then if they are worth it or not. I really bought them for extras when my family goes with me on backpacking scouting trips for coues, They've gotten into playing where's Waldo. I like them so much I've been using them on my own hunts this last month. I don't know if any of this helps anybody but maybe it does. I've had a member here ask about the pentax I offered so for now they are on hold for them. Kent

In the 50mm class, the bruntons are the best. I can't use big objective roofs because my eyes are to close together, probably a joke in there about my intelligence. I've been using heavy porros and decided to try a smaller objective roof for backpacking hunts and as a loner pair. The bruntons are alot better than the vortex and as sharp as the zuess. This last month I've spent 14 days behind them scouting elk and archery antelope hunting. My buddy had his swaros during 4 of those days, one day we stood in the rain for hours watching antelope, 2 miles away, this is what we decided after different light conditions. The brunton had 90% light gathering compared to the swaros, more just a light washout effect, colors not quite as bright during low light. Sharpness great even in low light and rain, he was suprised at how close to the swaros they were, he said he couldn't tell enough difference between them but really wanted too. I'm not saying they are as good as the high end stuff, but there are reasons guys have for not being able to spend $2000.00 on optics or unable to use the big roofs. There are decent alternatives out there that work. I love my 10X52 Minox HG and really wanted to have the new 13's work for me, no go, probably the best buy going. Anyway, the Bruntons are best in the 50mm class and at $313.00 are a steal, at half their original price I have a feeling they're being closed out. The Minox is your best choice in the bigger objective for your price range. The pentax are not very good as a total package, about 80% optically and not comfortable to use. Yet somethings better than nothing and I have a set of 16X60's that I bought years ago and actually glassed up coues deer with at long range, the one hunt I used them on. I will send them to you or anyone else that needs something to get them started for free. For myself I'm going to have to bite the bullet and get the 10+15 X 50 duovids someday. Kent

4B, I've had about all the scouting I can take. I'm ready to hunt. Kent

Rumors are rumors, even coming out of the horses mouth. I do know for a fact that the G&F officer had a frustrating 8 hrs in court that fri, and was happy to be out checking bears till late sat. Kent

This is true, wasn't there someone else that didn't want them killing this bull, and actively trying to keep the bull in the subdivision so it could be killed later? Pressure to produce in the hunting industry today can make good people make stupid decisions. Stuff like this is why I backpack hunt whenever possible. Kent

Malik paid $10,000 for the info, the guy got his guide license to legally collect. He also said he could get the surrounding neighbor's permission to shoot around their property, he couldn't or didn't fullfill that promise. Now for the juicy rumors going on up there. Malik offered $1,000,000 to G&F for all of this to go away and get his elk back with no citations. What a tangled web we weave. Kent

Went up sat and sun. I'm having no problem finding lopes out of the otc elk area, any time of day. It rained hard fri night and I found an area north of Hutch rd that had a ton of fresh elk and lope sign, but I never saw an animal. I walked a lot of that area and think I have an idea what they're doing. I'm headed back up wed thru sun and we'll see what happens. It's just funny how the antelope are acting so different from the non otc elk area. Hutch rd looked like a dove hunt, I didn't see anyone where I was at and only a few vehicle tracks. Kent

My buddy has the same elk hunt, he's waited a lot of years for this. I will be calling for him. Will be a great year with all the rain. Some of my other friends have the archery deer tag and I have a 4B archery lope tag and will be camping with them off the Black Canyon Lake road. Let me know if I can help in any way. Kent

I saw an elk hanging in Rusty's butcher shop in Springerville, killed in 4B. Maybe it was your Grandpa's. Heard that 2 were killed but can't comfirm. I have a 4B archery lope tag. This weekend I am scouting the northern portion of the unit and can shoot an elk if I see one. Good luck. Kent

I know of 4 males killed in units 1 and 3B as of saturday night. These are what the warden acually checked by then. No females reported at that time. Kent