Coach

Well crap Gino, you had to go and do it... I just weighed my hunting arrows and I'm right at 423 oz. I'm sure my Bowtech Allegiance from 2005 is spitting faster than 298!!! You better bring a chrono to Sunrise and a buttload of beer, 'cause I'm guessing I can out "old-school" you on suds slurpin' too!

A lot of great information on this thread - maybe the best I've seen in a long time. Since none of us are geologists, I'll put my $.02 out there. The previous posts have said pretty much anything I can add, but I'd describe it like this: Arizona has rocky, pourous soil, from the mountains to the desert. When Spring rains fall and snow is melting at the higher elevations, the water always drains to the lowest point, and does it quickly. On tall flats surrounded by rocky cliff areas, the water seeps out of the cliffs, onto the flatter areas. In the rolling hills, it obviosly flows through the sandy bottoms that make our landscape, but is soaking in as it passes through. I'm no geologist, but I've seen what the soil looks like here compared to the narrows and slot canyons in Utah. The Escalante Staircase is perfect example of what our desert lands would look like without soil. There is a hard sandstone or granite base under most of AZ, and the water is squirting through the top layers of dirt and rock, like a sponge under pressure. All that water has to go somewhere, and it either soaks downward or flows on top of the ground West and South as fast as gravity will take it. When a lot of water has soaked in, the water tables start pushing it back out to the top, through the lower sandy or broken rock that it origanally seeped in through. So, from a hunting perspectivet, like others have suggested, when you find a sandy draw with old cottonwoods, you know the water is only a few feet under the surface. It may look like a dry creekbed, but where the water has to take a sharp angle underground, it pools and gives those big trees something to live on. More likely than not, there will be pools of standing water where those cottonwoods grow - and they are easy to spot year 'round. Green in the Spring and Summer, colored during the Fall, and brown in winter months. Seeps, from what I've seen, are usually found around cliff areas, and are easy to spot by the moss or other lush vegetation in an otherwise dry area. These are the spots where water takes its sweet time filtering through tens of meters of limestone or grantite drop-by-drop. To me, these spots are golden because when he cattle ponds have dried up and the sandy washes are dry on the surface, they still produce drinkable water. It's because the water coming out of a hard granite seep probably landed on the ground above a couple of years ago - and has taken that long to finally drain out. In a tough drought year, the creek bottoms will be dry, the cattle tanks will look like an alligator's back, but a rocky seep will still be draining the excess of years past. Just my ramblings on the subject

For starters, when it comes to matching prices, I approached Outdoorsman's with a price I had found some Swaro SLC 10x42 on sale online. They not only matched the price, they actually beat it, by a significant amount, and that was for a single pair of binos. Keep in mind, I'm not speaking on their behalf, just on personal experience, so I have NO idea what kind of deal they can put together for you, but I would be willing to bet that they will match or beat their competitors' price - especially given all the optics in the package you described. You are also doing business with guys that hunt AZ and all over the West, are great resources for any hunt, have been there for a long time, and take pride in how they treat their customers. I'm not saying Sportsman's won't do the same, because I've never made a big purchase from them. But I do know I can vouge for The Outdoorsman's on this subject, as they have always taken a very customer-centered approach when I have bought from them, or was just comparing products. As for finding them, here's what I get from Mapquest... On N. Cave Creek Rd between E. Mountain View Road (south) and E. Cheryl Dr. (north) - so for major X-roads, Cave Creek, North of Dunlap. http://www.mapquest.com/maps?city=Phoenix&...geocode=ADDRESS As for angled scopes vs. straight, that's just a matter of personal choice, IMO. I prefer the straight WAY over angled, because I don't use my spotter for glassing so much as zooming in on something I've already found. For me, it's easier and faster to acquire the animal/target with a straight scope. On the other hand, I know guys who use their scope more for glassing (and birders who spend a lot of time behind their spotter) who say the angled lense is more comfortable when used for extended periods. I just find it harder to line up and get on a particular area with an angled scope - but apparently, when you get used to it, it's easier to look through, because you are only bending your neck 45 degrees, like looking through a microscope, as opposed to squatting down and looking through a straight scope, line of sight, at 90 degrees. Best of luck with your purchase. Let us know what you decide on, and how it works out for you.

Years ago, I drew a coveted Unit 1 archery bull tag. I spent countless hours throughout the summer watching bachelor herds, checking out horn growth, all that stuff. I was trying to make some concrete plans based on the bulls I was watching. Well, about 3 weeks before the season opened, all the bachelor herds started shedding their velvet, sparring, and moving off. By the time the season started, there were few elk in the areas the bachelor groups had been hanging out, and the biggest had moved miles away to claim their territory. So, the question is, what good does it do to watch bulls all summer doing something you already know they won't be doing during the rut? Their behavior and range will inevitably change. So why scout bulls during the summer months? It seems to me you need to scout during the rut in years before you draw, so you can understand how they will act, and where they will be *during* your hunt. They always come back to the same places to fight and establish breeding herds. I guess it is just strange that so many guys draw a tag and spend the whole summer watching certain bulls, seemingly unaware that when the rut kicks in, those bulls could be 10-15 miles from where they were summering with the other bachelors. Am I missing something here?

BTW, I'm guessing there is a great story behind that hunt. If you get a chance, I'm sure there are lots of us on here that would love to hear how it all unfolded - how you found him, stayed on him, kept from getting busted. If you feel like it, of course.

That is one stud buck - great job. Deer like that don't come around too often, and to have taken him with a bow, just that much sweeter. Congrats!

You've got that right for sure! WHT_MTNMAN is also on. Just getting out there and seeing them keeps you motivated. Also agree with mthorsrud, tromping around you'll find areas from previous years where rutting activity was heavy. An old elk hunter once told me that wherever you find lots of elk, there are a few areas they return to during the rut, year-after-year. Some are breeding spots, some, usually close by, are fighting spots. I've found his advice to pay off really well. Doesn't seem to matter where they are June - early August. They all seem to congregate at the start of the rut in certain areas, and the winners split off with their herds. I've also noticed that the biggest bulls don't usually 'herd up' that way. They come in and get a feel for who's gonna walk out with the best harems, then spend their days bouncing from herd-to-herd, whenever they feel like it, taking whatever they want without much of a fight. Kinda the old father-and-son bull (bovine) joke where the younger bull says, "Hey pops, let's run down there and mount one of those cows...and dad says, No son, let's WALK down there and mount ALL of them". (G-rated version) Honestly, this thread was kind of a rhetorical question to see what kind of discussion would arise. I doubt that anyone has ever "wasted" any time scouting. Each hour in the field teaches us something, or just helps us get a little more in touch with the "real world" that plays out each year while we are consumed with work, kids, family, bills, all those other important obligations that prevent us from spending as much time in the field as we'd like. Thanks for the responses.

+1, You can look from the outside of the building at a nice sized desert moutain - don't remember exactly how far away it is, but far enough to do a good side-by-side comparison at a hillside that looks much like the desert areas where coues hang out.

Both are very nice scopes. The Swaro 80MM HD is probably the pinnacle of spotting scopes in terms of quality glass at both ends. I'm guessing, if you could set both up in a real-world hunting situation, image-wise you would be hard pressed to tell any real, noticable difference. So then, it comes down to which one has the most comfortable eyepiece and best focusing - for you. I like the big focusing knob on the swaro - at the same time, I think the Kowa adds a smaller, fine-adjustment knob for focusing. To me, this is a pretty big deal. I can't glass for long periods with a spotter, like some guys can. When I DO pull out a spotter, the ability to use the fine adjustment focusing is a big plus. I've glassed some through a Swaro 60, and felt like the focus control was a little too fast. I bought a Swaro 80MM HD and returned it. Not because it wasn't great spotting scope, but because I decided that spotting scopes, for me, were not where I would want to put that much investment. I could pick up the same level of detail through my swaro 15-56 in almost all situations so I couldn't justify the extra weight and bulk to lug any spotting scope and the heavy tripod it required. Personally, the best spotter I have ever looked through is the Zeiss 77 APO. It was very comfortable to look through, and has a fast focus knob, and a fine focus knob. Today, I use a Pentax PF80-ED, which is a phenomenal scope for the price, and given how rarely I really need a spotting scope just makes a good fit. I think I picked mine up for around $900 including the 20-60 eyepiece which is roughly a third of what the best from Swaro, Kowa and Lieca cost, plus it has been the "Better View Desired" (birding website) reference standard for nearly 10 years. My hunting style isn't really one that makes a "top-notch" spotter worth the extra weight and bulk. I've rarely been in a situation where either 10x or 15x Swarovski binocs can't give me enough detail to know whether a deer is worth going after or not. More times than not, I leave my spotter and the big heavy tripod at camp. I guess I like to go light, and I can support 10X and 15x swaro binocs on a 1.5 pound sprint-pro tripod and glass all day. For me a spotting scope means a LOT of extra weight and bulk, so the only times I bring it out is when I'm glassing from a vehicle, or sighting in a rifle.

I bought a GPSMap60csx, and also ordered the Garmin TOPO US 24K Southwest DVD and a 2MB mico SD card. The idea is to put 24K topos onto the card so that I can have them available on my GPS. So, how in the heck do you do that? I installed the maps and the super-lame "Base-Camp" software onto my PC, but the "Export" option is disabled. Anyone know how to transfer the Garmin maps to the microSD card so I can use them in my GPS?

Awesome info! I never knew a gobbler would rub a sappling like that. Thanks for sharing it.

Obviously, this thread has nowhere to go but down, so this will be my last post on it. All I have to say is, sorry Amanda for the direction it has taken. My intent was not for it to end up as it has, just to try and have a civil discussion about a trend I'm seeing in our sport that something I don't particularly like and wanted to get some other hunters' opionions about. Please feel free to pull it if you like.

"All in all I don't see what the whine is about". Have you ever written an entire post without being confrontational or insulting? Just askin'.

Dang, I am truly sorry to see that. On the upside, almost a decade back when the Rodeo/Chedeski fires were eating huge portions of the rim country, we wondered how we would recover. Now, those burned areas are some of the richest and most fertile around. The elk, deer and turkey populations have grown significantly because of the fire. There are still massive scars left by those fires, but in some ways, the area is healthier because of them. It's hard to see when you are in the middle of the destruction, at the same time, fires have been shaping our forests for a long time, and usually, over the long term, they do promote healthier forests. I certainly hope that will be the case with the Shultz fire, although it might take years to see the benefits.

I was camped at Cholla for about a week in May, and kept looking at those hills across the lake, wondering about the coues in there. You know they are there...A little work and some scouting should be well worth your time over there.

I know of a Samurai for sale if you are interested. Don't know anything about it but it looks pretty decent from a walk-around.

Thanks KWP, I'll load those when my GPS shows up. I'll post my findings here.

Thanks, I'll give them a call Monday morning.

I registered for this elk contest (http://www.whitemountaintrophyelkcontest.com/) online and got a PayPal confirmation, but no email or snail mail confirmation. Anybody know who to contact for some type of "proof of registration"?

After digging a little bit more, it turns out when you load the maps from the DVD, you get two programs. One is BaseCamp, which I find pretty unimpressive. The other is called MapInstall, and it is specifically designed to transfer the 24K maps either to your device or a SD/Micro SD card. Takes about an hour and a half for a 2GB region, but I did copy all the maps to my card - but does it in a single file called gmapsupp.img. Unfortunately, my GPS is on backorder at Cabelas, so I can't tell what those maps will look like on my GPS. I tried them in my Garmin Nuvi - car based GPS, but didn't see any more detail that the standard maps pre-installed. Can't complain too much about the backorder though, I got it for $199, when the "normal" price is $499 and the normal sale price is $369. So I'll have to wait to see how the maps look. If they are anything like they look on BaseCamp, I'll be pretty disappointed. The topos when viewed in BaseCamp don't seem to show any dirt roads. I doubt if the GPSMAP 60 series supports them, but I have the National Geographic TOPO state series, which are far suprerior to what I'm seeing in the Garmin 24K dvd. Has anyone had any luck transferring maps from NatGeo TOPO direcly to a Garmin GPS?

Maybe I should clarify this topic a bit. I have absolutely NO problem with guys who are able to make their living hunting and fishing - to me that is a dream I would LOVE to live. The point I was trying to make was that when I go to buy a product, I don't want to buy some "signature this" or "some-celebrity-name series of that". It's one thing when there are only a few of those products, but when Cabelas doesn't offer a Morrell Infinity Target that ISN'T the "bone collector" series it pushes me away. Like I have said, I have nothing agains Michael Waddell or Jim Shockey, or Rick Clunn... I just don't want their name all over the stuff I buy and use. Partially because I know I'm paying extra for something I would rather not have on it in the first place. If you put two products side-by-side, and one has the endorsement of your favorite celeb, and costs $5 more, no problem. When you stop offering the "non-endorsed" versions, then I know I'm shelling money at something I don't give a rip about. It may be marketing, but for some of us, it's negative marketing. Maybe I'm just an old crumudgeon but I like my stuff pretty vanilla. No-nonsense stuff that works. And I don't want to pay extra for some celebrity endorsement.

I used to believe that getting in further would put me in better deer country. Sometimes, that turns out to be true. On the other hand, sometimes, that's just what everyone else is thinking, and a lot of amazing country gets overlooked because it is so easily accessible. I hiked and backpacked the backside of the Apache range years ago, thinking I would see lots of huge bucks. Instead I found well-fed lions, and a few skittish bucks. Now, I think it's because I was further in than the ranchers let their cattle roam, and manage the cats. Who knows? I still bet there are some stud bucks in that country, but after 3 days of drinking melted snow and eating trail mix, the biggest buck I saw was an over-the-hill 2x2. A couple of years later, I packed into another area on the higher end of the Apaches day after day, a long, cold, hour-plus hike to get away from the masses. Another guy in our camp made a nice breakfast, drove to a good glassing spot and found WAY more deer than we were seeing, and much bigger bucks. I eventually came "off the hill" and was fortunate enough to take the bigger of the bucks he had spotted. Another story - a buddy of mine bought the "governer's" tag for unlimited, state-wide coues hunting with the stated goal of taking the world-record coues deer with a muzzle-loader. He ate tag soup, but chased an amazing high 130's buck for days, and the country he was hunting could be accessed from a paved road. He eventually killed one of the top-scoring SCI ML coues in Mexico a year or two later, but what stuck with me was how close to paved roads the potential WR ML coues was hanging, and how many 120+ bucks he passed over without hiking more than a few hundred yards from either paved roads or well maintained dirt roads, that literally hundreds of die-hard hunters drove past for days throughout the season, looking to get to the "end of the road" and then hike in. You would be amazed how many bucks you drive by on your way to the "secluded" spot.

Wow, very nice. Thanks for sharing those awesome pix with us.

Next weekend, July 2nd - 4th. The tribe usually puts on a pretty good firework show over Sunrise lake too. Drop in if you like.

Cool sequence. My money's on the cat.