twigsnapper

Flatlander - did you ask the commissioners to be considered as one of the committee members? I think you would add some good insight/perspective to that committee.

There is a ton of info here: https://wildlife.utah.gov/utah-expo-permits-faq.html

A raffle is not the same as a normal draw system like you say. In a draw system you get a bonus point when not drawn and your odds increase most likely each year that you aren't drawn. In a raffle everyone is unlucky but 1 guy, and everyone just spent a ton of money for no increase in draw odds. Not all states have point systems. Go ask the residents of Wyoming(elk, deer, antelope) and New Mexico how their point system works. Wyoming uses preference points which is a fair way of doing a draw. New Mexico uses a lottery where everyone has equal chances. New Mexico and Wyoming also refund unsuccessful applicants. A raffle doesn't refund unsuccessful applicants and your kind of raffles for the rich guys I doubt would have everyone getting equal odds. Also in my opinion the way Arizona does their bonus points is more fair than these two states that you have mentioned. So Arizona does it better than most if not all and you guys are trying to make it worse than the rest. So if I look at your post above, what point are you trying to make other than change to the subject? Wyoming residents dont have presence points for elk deer or antelope, both states charge a fee to apply, which is no different than the cost of a raffle ticket. In some raffles you can buy multiple chances, some raffles only allow one ticket per person. The rules around the proposed tags havent even been established, and this isnt my proposal, Im just trying to clear up the gobs and gobs of misinformation that people keep trying to spread on this sight. Sooo, WY(resident elk deer and antelope) and New Mexico basically run a raffle for their draws with one entry per person....

A raffle is not the same as a normal draw system like you say. In a draw system you get a bonus point when not drawn and your odds increase most likely each year that you aren't drawn. In a raffle everyone is unlucky but 1 guy, and everyone just spent a ton of money for no increase in draw odds. Not all states have point systems. Go ask the residents of Wyoming(elk, deer, antelope) and New Mexico how their point system works.

Sorry AZKiller, im a little quick on the trigger these days...

It doesnt say anything about equal opportunity for all, if it was equal opportunity for all, bonus point and preferences point system would violate the model.

#4 Hunting Opportunity for All Every citizen has an opportunity, under the law, to hunt and fish in the United States and Canada.

You could argue that, but you would be lying to yourself. If 300 tags are given to the raffle and tickets are sold for $10 and a 10 ticket per person limit were imposed then that would mean if someone were to max out on all of the rafffles it would cost him $30k. For his investment he would have 3000x more chance of drawing a tag than someone who bought a single ticket. That is the definition of disparity. Even for a single hunt anyone can purchase 10x more opportunity than another for $90 more investment. This is exactly my concern with these systems. They are built to exploit economic disparity among sportsmen. So will anyone please for crying out loud tell me why it HAS to be tags. Why is that the only option a certain group of people will advocate for? Your math is wrong. That's not how odds work. I thought you were the odds guy My point isnt that your odds would be better, my point is that offering a chance at a tag for $5 makes it more accessible for some people than having to pay $13. Flatlander keeps arguing that the North American model is at being violated beacuase of the proposed raffle tags but its not. The North American Model doesnt say anything about keeping draw odds at a particular level. Auctioning tags is a different argument but a raffle is no different than a lottery tag through a normal draw system.

IF raffle tags are used, and that's still an IF, a new program similar to the Big Game Super Raffle would be created. The current Big Game Super Raffle is mandated by legislation to disperse its funds to HPC. This one would be similar except funds would be Game and Fish. No outside organization would get any money. Who get's the HPC money? I am pretty sure its the critter groups and they guys that run the critter are the same people on CPAZ. Your are 100% incorrect. All the money raised goes back to the G&F and is held separate from the other funds of the G&F. Absolutely no money is kept by the critter groups.

If 300 tags are given to the raffle and tickets are sold for $10 and a 10 ticket per person limit were imposed then that would mean if someone were to max out on all of the rafffles it would cost him $30k. For his investment he would have 3000x more chance of drawing a tag than someone who bought a single ticket. That is the definition of disparity Also, if someone wants to spend $30,000 on raffles tickets, I say heck ya, thats $30,000 more than we would get from him otherwise. If we use a stamp we would only get $5 bucks from the guy. Thats $30,000 hes not spending on landowner tags in WY/MT/CO.

You could argue that, but you would be lying to yourself. If 300 tags are given to the raffle and tickets are sold for $10 and a 10 ticket per person limit were imposed then that would mean if someone were to max out on all of the rafffles it would cost him $30k. For his investment he would have 3000x more chance of drawing a tag than someone who bought a single ticket. That is the definition of disparity. Even for a single hunt anyone can purchase 10x more opportunity than another for $90 more investment. This is exactly my concern with these systems. They are built to exploit economic disparity among sportsmen. So will anyone please for crying out loud tell me why it HAS to be tags. Why is that the only option a certain group of people will advocate for? I would actually prefer a stamp over raffle tags but selfishly if Im paying $5 or $10 Id rather get a chance at a tag than getting a stamp of no value. Do you disagree with bonus points or preference points? They have similar idea as you just illustrated, creating disparity....And i suppose violating the North American model with your argument of having more chances than others with less points

The argument could be made that offering tags for $5 per chance instead of $13 is more supportive of the North American Model.

My point was that rich guys who want to buy a tag can go to Mexico and hunt desert sheep for 40-50,000, they dont have to buy the higher priced $200,000+ auction tags in AZ or wait on the draw. And that many book rams come from Mexico, not just AZ. People keep making the argument that the current education funding is all about getting tags for their rich clients but the reality is there are tags all over the place for various species that can be bought. I think we are often too Arizona-centric in our thinking.

Also, both the Millermatic and the Lincoln 130 or 135 can do both gas and flux, spend the money and get him a gas setup, much better to work with as others have already stated

For household projects the 120v welders work just fine. The Millermatic 135 is a great option. It is a little more forgiving if you dont have it set right. The Lincoln of the similar size is good too but it doesnt have the same level of settings as the Miller. One main advantage the Lincoln has over the Miller is Home Depot carries tips and nozzles for the Lincoln where you usually have to go to a welding shop to get stuff for the Miller products. I have used both quite a bit and they all get the job done. You also might look at Weldmark, they are made by Miller but a little less expensive, the gun even has Miller on the side.

Trade pending....

Bought this a couple years ago, used on one hunt in Oct. has a little dirt on outside but basically new. Only farted in it a couple times. $350 or trade for something of similar value. Cold weather version comes with pillow. Text or pm Andy 602-881-0610

Here is one to support GreyGhost

Back to the original purpose of this post, I agree, send the commissioners a "thanks" for the outcome of the trail cam rule. They need to hear appreciation when warranted.....

Mexico = 70 AZ = 77 Mexico - All purchased AZ - At most 8 were purchased, 69-70 were drawn

There are plenty of landowner tags around north america that are just as good as an average sheep tag or a trophy elk tag though, and the guys that want them can buy them regularly. My point is, what are you doing to get on the committee??

"There isn’t a landowner tag on earth as good as an Arizona statewide tag Andy and you know it." You are 100% correct. But the current proposal isn't for state wide tags and 365 day seasons. You are comparing apples and watermelons.

The bushmaster has me interested... can you text me a few pics please? 602-881-0610