Flatlander

Dude . . .

You could argue that, but you would be lying to yourself. If 300 tags are given to the raffle and tickets are sold for $10 and a 10 ticket per person limit were imposed then that would mean if someone were to max out on all of the rafffles it would cost him $30k. For his investment he would have 3000x more chance of drawing a tag than someone who bought a single ticket. That is the definition of disparity. Even for a single hunt anyone can purchase 10x more opportunity than another for $90 more investment. This is exactly my concern with these systems. They are built to exploit economic disparity among sportsmen. So will anyone please for crying out loud tell me why it HAS to be tags. Why is that the only option a certain group of people will advocate for? I would actually prefer a stamp over raffle tags but selfishly if Im paying $5 or $10 Id rather get a chance at a tag than getting a stamp of no value. Do you disagree with bonus points or preference points? They have similar idea as you just illustrated, creating disparity....And i suppose violating the North American model with your argument of having more chances than others with less points I do not disagree with bonus points because All people have equal opportunity for them. I would be opposed to bonus points if you could simply buy them.

You could argue that, but you would be lying to yourself. If 300 tags are given to the raffle and tickets are sold for $10 and a 10 ticket per person limit were imposed then that would mean if someone were to max out on all of the rafffles it would cost him $30k. For his investment he would have 3000x more chance of drawing a tag than someone who bought a single ticket. That is the definition of disparity. Even for a single hunt anyone can purchase 10x more opportunity than another for $90 more investment. This is exactly my concern with these systems. They are built to exploit economic disparity among sportsmen. So will anyone please for crying out loud tell me why it HAS to be tags. Why is that the only option a certain group of people will advocate for?

Racked

The argument that I have made and heard others express is that we are opposed to creating a system that takes tags that should otherwise be available to everyone at an equal opportunity through the draw process and re-allocating them into a system where the more money you spend the more opportunity you have to get those tags. My point is that this conflicts with the North American model tenants that wildlife is held in public trust and that all have opportunity to participate. By providing additional opportunity, for additional dollars we employ a pay to play system that will eventually price put some classes of sportsmen. This is clearly demonstrated in Utah where tags that would otherwise be distributed through the draw are auctioned off for $10k+ or raffles to people who pay hundreds to buy a raffle ticket for every hunt in the system.

Tom are you good on coolers and other supplies?

Finally you admit to going both ways.

Be interesting to see how this impacts Mt lion tag sales

My guess would be that its in response to the attempt to take cat hunting away from game and fish control this year showing more control gives them a stronger foundation for maintaining their own management of the species

I think Bruce may have sent something to them. I did not, sorry to disappoint you.

And the 501C4 status of CAPAZ may not be relevant to the funding source for education it is however significant in that it prevents any of us from knowing who may be donating money to this organization which is relevant to the discussion at hand and who might be pushing for the tag issue .

First of all from your previous post I should clarify that I never proposed a license increase although others that I have spoken with have. IF raffle tags are used, and that's still an IF, a new program similar to the Big Game Super Raffle would be created. The current Big Game Super Raffle is mandated by legislation to disperse its funds to HPC. This one would be similar except funds would be Game and Fish. No outside organization would get any money. In regard to this isnt it just a tad presumptuous to assume that if tags are going to be used they will be used in the manner that CAPAZ is proposing isnt that plan still subject to discussion and debate?

Apparently it was confiscated in a raid by AZGFD and USFW.

I have been trying to avoid contributing to the hijacking of SirRoyals thread, but since we have come this far, well, I guess I am all in. TS - I dont follow your point about these tags not being valuable, or what the point of all of these bar charts is. The heartburn that I have is that Pete in particular has been undeviating in his pursuit of tags. He has changed his position drastically on how those tags would be used, but will not move off of his commitment to using tags. And when he has been challenged on the topic he has insulted and patronized those who have spoken up. In regard to the committee, why are you telling everyone to try and get on the committee when we know there will only be seven members. I think people should be supporting parties who are already involved in the discussion and then attending the committee meetings when they happen. One suggestion would be to email a commissioner and express your concerns about the committee being made up of a diverse group and not just the CAPAZ board. As far as most hunters supporting this idea, I would have to strongly disagree. Maybe we just run in different circles, but I also know when something similar happened in 2012 sportsmen were overwhelmingly opposed. As far as 501©4 donations not being tax deductible, they are if they are a business expense. But the whole 501©4 discussion is interesting as AZ is already grappling with the Dark Money being poured into this state. I think I would rather know where they are getting their money.

No one is defaming Pete, but he is clearly dead set on making the tag thing happen and has no desire to consider anything else.

how many 18" goats you see?One on my wall. 😀 I think what hes getting at is that if you use that method youll probably go home empty handed in 99.9999999% of antelope units. You had arguably the best antelope hunt in the world. Your buck is incredible and most will go their lifetime without seeing one like that!! I was just bragging.

how many 18" goats you see? One on my wall. 😀

Sucks. Dont go.

Guys tomorrow is the commission meeting in Payson where two very important topics will be discussed. If you have an opinion, please speak up. I am particularly concerned about item #29 regarding funding mechanism for an ongoing conservation education program. My hope is that the commission does not rush to a decision on the only option currently being presented; raffling off tags. I hope they will take their time and study all the options and make an informed decision. Both topics are in the agenda for after 2:00 PM. Please above all else, when making comments try to be professional, calm and informed. Profanity laced tirades are not helpful to any cause. Thanks again and good luck.

Nice watermark

Look up Eastmans 4x7 method. Need 7 on the first two mass measurements, 7 combined between the fsecomd two measurements and 7 prongs. With those four measurements combined and 14 horns you will have a book goat. An antelope ear is about 6 the eye is 1.5-2. Antelope are incredibly tough to field judge. They are almost all shorter than you think they are because their ears are so small. Mass looks weird at different angles. Any curve to the horns will add more inches than you think. Horns that go out tend to look bigger. The best advice I have is to put your hands on as many as possible. Look at them with other people who know goats. And take a buddy and make him hold your ammo or quiver. Give him the authority to say no. Because at some point you are going to get fooled. Good luck, have fun its a blast.

One can only hope.

Is it the eyepiece and the scope? Dang Gina, thats almost enough to get me to buy a ticket. With the 12s and BTX from this plus my 15 hds I would pretty much be set.

Excellent idea.

No, there just has to be a public comments period when a significant change is made to the proposal.