Flatlander

I dont trust Pete one bit. I think he showed his true cards when he started calling people he didnt even know as FOOLS. I spoke with several other board members and appreciated their thoughts, input and dialogue. I think most of them are very interested in coming up with as many ideas as possible. I think Pete is a snake and I think that he unwaveringly committed to getting tags. I dont think thats the case for everyone on that board.

Some good points, but one needs to use the broad-brush approach carefully. For example, not one of the groups in AZ makes a "profit" off the gift tags and neither does the game dept. Second, even those tags have been removed from the general draw over the years, the money raised has probably added more tags to the general draw for certain species because of projects and transplants. That's a win-win. A while back, there was a thread on another site about bighorn auction tags in the West. Tony Mandile, who once posted here on a regular basis, put up some very pertinent info on the program here in AZ from articles he did years ago. Another member of that site posted the positive aspects of what has gone on in Montana. I don't want to repost them here without permission, and in deference to Amanda, I won't post the site URL. Does this mean I'm for the present tag grab? Not necessarily. And I won't decide one way or another until I see the proposal actually fleshed out in its entirety. If it looks anything like the abomination in Utah, though, it's a non-starter for me. Buzz - Thanks for the input, you took the words right out of my mouth. This proposal simply doesnt align with the North American Model. TS - I do not believe anywhere that these special commissioners tags are allowed that they are sold for a Profit per se, all of them do support wildlife and conservation to some extent. The fact remains, we could certainly raise far more money if every tag was sold to the highest bidder. But thats not how the model works, look to Africa or Europe if youd like to see how turns out. I do have an idea for raising funds, perhaps for education or for the proverbial war chest political fund. Will post that later on a separate fund. Just a reminder, there is a meeting Monday at 6:30 at BPS. CAPAZ has said they will Not move forward with this if they do not have the support of the sportsmen, lets give them the chance to make good on that and show up to let them know our thoughts.

I'll be there Monday. My brother said he showed up a little late tonight. Said any questioning of motives or disagreements was treated very defensively rather than looked at as trying to come up with different ideas. Said the guy that came up with the $2 habitat stamp had the board stumped like they never thought that was a possibility (or they dont want it a possibility) add a $5 stamp or license increase on all licenses and they'll have money coming out of their ears and the tags can be left alone. If they insist on the tags its obvious their one mission is the tags and only the tags. Who was your brother? The habitat stamp idea works. I will say that I don't think that everyone on C&P is in it to get more tags to rich people, but I do believe the rich people have them persuaded. The question asked if I opposed the current raffle / auction model, I don't know that I have ever considered it because it has always existed in my memory. After some thought my question is this, where does it stop? We could certainly raise more money for conservation if we auctioned every tag to the highest bidder but then our model would cease to exist. I do not believe that the integrity of the model is worth sacrificing for any mount of money. I believe there are other ways.

I was there. The C&P crowd did not seem real receptive to people saying they were not in support of the idea. Dissenting opinions were characterized as "Criticism". There is a meeting at Bass Pro fine gun room Monday as stated above. Didn't seem to me that there was much brainstorming for new ideas, although several commenters provided suggestions. I have a few more ideas. In the meantime, we need to get out and speak up. Please fill up the meeting on Monday. Remember that we cannot be at each others throats, rather we need to be appreciative of those who carried the flag during the HSUS fight and who do the bulk of the heavy lifting in the state's conservation efforts. Instead, we need to come with solutions and be willing to pitch in to help with those solutions. Ultimately, I am not sure that everyone at C&P cares what we have to say, but I hope to be proven wrong. And in the meantime, I will take my voice elsewhere. The commission meeting in May will be important, the commissioners need to see that there is support, otherwise we are left to be represented by those who do speak up. Hope to see everyone on Monday.

That deer is rad. Congrats!

Dave I commend your call to action. But here is my beef with whats going on. This thing is first sold as just one way to do it and they want everyones input. Whatever it takes to stop the bad guys. Then everyone gives input and expresses their concerns, and the tone changes to Fine if you dont like my idea, do it yourself... To make a blanket statement that the people providing these comments need to get off their collective ### doesnt sit well with me. You have no idea who I am, how I spend my time or my money. I suspect this is true of most of these guys. We need to be working cooperatively and helping each other find ways to make a difference. This idea clearly does not have the support of many sportsmen. Is the ADA open to ideas other than this? Or if we suggest something at tomorrow nights meeting is it going to be met with Good idea . . . do it yourself!

Wow, you pretty much nailed it.

Thats not true I left an entire list.

Look, I am all for raising money to fight the antis. But I believe that this type of shift away from the North American model, and toward a pay to play system is wrong for our heritage our community and the wildlife. This system isnt asking hunters to give more than they take away anymore than me buying a lottery ticket is me supporting education. The sacrifice I am talking about is way more than tags, its the fidelity of the system of wildlife management in this state and throughout the West. I agree, hunters need to contribute, and I have said many many times, its our responsibility in life to bring more than we take away. That means actually taking part in conservation, not just trying to get a second round of dollars out of our wildlife in the form of raffles for tags that everyone already applied for. The more I listen to the pro auction/raffle tag crowd, the more opposed to the idea I am becoming.

I am yet to be convinced that every hunter in the state should have to sacrifice the opportunity to hunt or take their kids hunting in order to get some rich guys money. The facts are that all of us should contribute to the level we are able and should not do so at the expense of another. I could not in good conscience use my dollars to take opportunity away from another and call it conservation.

I agree 100% with what you have said. We have to be able to discuss these things without acting like a jackass.

I dont think that I need a great deal of detail to know how to feel about this. I am willing to listen to anything but this is all I think we really need to know: 1. Does the initiative redirect tags from the AZGFD administrated draw process to an outside organization(s) who will sell them to raise additional funds? If the answer is yes, then my question would be how does AZGFD plan to deal with the loss of said funds? My guess would be that they will raise tag fees to make up the difference. 2. What is being done with the funds that AZGFD cannot do themselves right now? Education? Title 17 does not restrict state funds from being used for this purpose, AZGFD can and does use their dollars for educating the general public (ever see those giant billboards with the bighorn sheep on them?). When a political fight comes up, I understand funds are needed to fight that, but that does not occur every year, so what happens in the meantime? 3. Are there other means to raise these funds, that do not require using wildlife as the medium for raising dollars. For instance, most political lobbies are suppprted by the industries they serve. So could the outdoor industry provide goods or services which could be used to raise funds? Are we as sportsman willing to pony up and provide financial suppport? I must say that I do not believe I can be convinced that this is a good idea. But I will listen to what is being proposed. I believe that selling more tags or opportunities for tags to those with more financial means feels like a perversion of the North American Model. The presentation of the initiative feels backhanded to me and that may be feeding my uneasiness. But it appears to me that although this would provide funds for the political fights like we had with HSUS it certainly is not the only way to raise money for these fights, and the bill certainly provides an added benefit to those who have money and those who have businesses that serve those who have money. Selfishly, I could probably afford a few more raffle tickets than most, so I may get a few more tags this way, but I agree, using state resources to raise money for political action does not feel ethical to me. Will be interesting to see how this shakes out. And please if anything I have stated is inaccurate please feel free to correct it.

I dont think that I need a great deal of detail to know how to feel about this. I am willing to listen to anything but this is all I think we really need to know: 1. Does the initiative redirect tags from the AZGFD administrated draw process to an outside organization(s) who will sell them to raise additional funds? If the answer is yes, then my question would be how does AZGFD plan to deal with the loss of said funds? My guess would be that they will raise tag fees to make up the difference. 2. What is being done with the funds that AZGFD cannot do themselves right now? Education? Title 17 does not restrict state funds from being used for this purpose, AZGFD can and does use their dollars for educating the general public (ever see those giant billboards with the bighorn sheep on them?). When a political fight comes up, I understand funds are needed to fight that, but that does not occur every year, so what happens in the meantime? 3. Are there other means to raise these funds, that do not require using wildlife as the medium for raising dollars. For instance, most political lobbies are suppprted by the industries they serve. So could the outdoor industry provide goods or services which could be used to raise funds? Are we as sportsman willing to pony up and provide financial suppport? I must say that I do not believe I can be convinced that this is a good idea. But I will listen to what is being proposed. I believe that selling more tags or opportunities for tags to those with more financial means feels like a perversion of the North American Model. The presentation of the initiative feels backhanded to me and that may be feeding my uneasiness. But it appears to me that although this would provide funds for the political fights like we had with HSUS it certainly is not the only way to raise money for these fights, and the bill certainly provides an added benefit to those who have money and those who have businesses that serve those who have money. Selfishly, I could probably afford a few more raffle tickets than most, so I may get a few more tags this way, but I agree, using state resources to raise money for political action does not feel ethical to me. Will be interesting to see how this shakes out. And please if anything I have stated is inaccurate please feel free to correct it, just be sure to write in crayon.

500cc?

I am sure he appreciates that. Since just the bow package without arrows sells for $350. If you want to low ball the guy, at least do it through a PM.

Wait somebody posted pictures of deer on the site ?!?!?!

I have been thinking of this myself and have been looking at the Promaster 325 and Outdoorsman head. Seems to be a popular pairing.

As I recall Sean, there wasn't any leftover tags for where I like to hunt, unit 29. Never saw zero leftovers before. Were there leftovers in other units? Yes, there were in a handful of units. But the number continues to drop each year. And if or when that list is posted up it will be a giant step towards 0 leftovers. Guys putting those as 3rd and 4th choices will scoop up all those undersubscribed tags.

I am a fan of closed mouth mounts and especially in Javelina. Definitely a more natural look.

There is lots of land to hunt right behind those locked gates. Just walk in and leave the vehicle at the gate. As long as the gate isnt posted you are just fine. Fain Ranch and Deep Well both typically allow walk in access without even needing to contact them. It will be a great hunt. Good luck!

Used iPhone 7. Might be a 7s, I cant remember. It works and in real good shape. Lived in one of those plastic shells with a rubber inner liner. Verizon. $250 or whatever is reasonable, I have no idea what these go for. Located in Gilbert.

Ttt

I have the late archery hunt that immediately follows your hunt. There are no secrets here, I am going to focus on water near the rim. If I was you, Id go where I could set up and glass the junipers. Good luck!

So do I understand that the NR quota was filled, until the card got rejected, then they went back and looked at the 1-2 pass and the next guy in line was a resident? Seems like a crappy way to redistribute that tag.