Flatlander

You know how many guys waited a long time for an antelope tag? Almost all of them. You know how many 82 bucks are out there? A lot less than 700 which is about how many tags there are. Enjoy the hunt, forget about the score.

6:30 PM Fine Gun Room @ Bass Pro Shops Please come, listen and most importantly SPEAK UP!

Thanks for the response Mr. Commissioner. Have you received a proposal for the use of raffle or other special tags? It is my personal belief, and admittedly not the viewpoint of all sportsmen, that any special tags separates us further from the ideals of the North American Model that have benefitted wildlife in this country for more than a century. Further, it is also mathematically challenging to see how raffle tags would provide anywhere near the amount of funds required for education of the non-hunting public. If for instance 200 tags were to be assigned to this raffle, and they varied in desirability from premium to average, and if those tags more or less aligned with current seasons then I see the numbers shaking out roughly this way: 500 tickets per application (a limited number of tickets is part of the arrangement I have heard in meetings), at a cost of $5 per ticket, then that only raises $500k. That is only 25% of the cost that CAPAZ has suggested is required for the outreach. Instead the entire amount could be raised via other methods that do not require legislation. We have emailed a copy of this method to all of the commissioners. I am a concerned sportsmen who is here to help and willing to act, but I must express my total opposition to auction or raffle tags. Andrew Gillett No proposal. However, 500,000 would do substantial assistance for education. Earnest people have lots of ideas. The Commission hasn't done anything in my six years to harm the North American Model and I am sure wouldnt now. The current department Conserve and Protect effort is highly effective and it is my hope will grow more robust over time so that the second most urbanized state in the nation has an educated citizenry about the North American model and the power of how conservation is funded. Thx again, Kurt Davis I think every sportsman in the state would agree that educating the non-hunting community is necessary. We are all on the same page for that. However, decreasing opportunity for the general public and re-allocating those tags to be more accessible to those with more means is exactly the opposite of the North American Model. Sportsman need to bear the burden of educating those in our communities, but I feel strongly that tags is not the way to do it. Andrew Gillett I have never heard anyone proposing decreasing opportunities, tags,;etc...ever. kurt Continuation of email conversation: Mr. Davis, I have had the opportunity to meet with Mr. Unmacht twice and Mr. Cimarello once. I have also listened to all of Mr. Cimarello's podcasts with Jay Scott and have discussed the proposal with other members of the CAPAZ board. During these discussions Mr. Cimarello has been very clear that tags would need to be re-allocated from the draw to their raffle/auction system. This devalues every application in the draw and also adds a second tax to those who wish to receive tags that would have otherwise been available via the draw process. In this way their proposed system favors those with more financial means by providing them with more opportunities to receive these tags. Below are citations where you can hear Pete state that their intent is to re-allocate tags from the draw to a secondary system. 23:05 of Jay Scott's first podcast (linked at the beginning of the other long thread). The question is would the new auction and/or raffle tags come out of the existing tags in the regular draw. The short answer from Pete is YES, the Dept would have to pull the tags from the existing allocation so you are going to lose some tags. He says "so they would obviously taken away from the general draw". Thank you for the time and discourse. I look forward to more conversations about how to protect our wildlife and heritage. Andrew Gillett Thx for info. That wouldnt happen with this commission I am sure. Additional tags is a different issue. This issue is not new for commission. Thx for email. Kurt From the exchange above and based on what Bruce has said about the proposal that Pete made to the commission, essentially arguing that no tags would be diverted to this special raffle/auction effort, I am fairly certain that commissioner Davis and Pete are in lockstep. I am also convinced that Pete is a liar. At the Bass Pro Shops Meeting we asked directly if he was planning to present Amy ideas at the commission meeting this month. He said no presentation had been prepared and they werent on the schedule. He knew right then that he would be presenting this idea. He danced around the particulars of the question. We now know what Petes intentions are. We know the enemy, its time to go to war with anyone who is trying to whore out our tag system.

I would think Eurasians qualify as a "target". As long as there is a backstop (like block wall, annoying neighbor's house, neighborhood troublemaker, Prius, tweaker, treehugging lefty, etc.) you should be fine then. Seems to me a dove makes a decent backstop.

Seems easy enough, Shoot the .243 and keep the ranges tight.

There is a nearly identical pair on CL.

When it comes to tripods, weight = stability.

Just a few days late for about 20 cabins.

Thats fine.

Please tell me your idea is a calendar with pictures of you in a different camo pattern booty shorts for every month.

I got your tag right here.

Ok my thread, so you guys need to contribute or post elsewhere. This thread is for information and or solutions. Dont bother telling us what you wont do. Bring something to the table.

Looks like maybe snow tonight. Fingers crossed.

Sorry I get it now, Clear Creek Pines Developments 8 & 9. Not hunting units 8 & 9. I was thinking that this fire was a long long ways from GMU 8 & 9. Definitely a bummer. We looked at cabins in starlight pones a couple years ago. I am sure that everyone is very worried. Prayers for safety.

Though it has burned through a corner of the subdivision they have a lot of structural crews on scene and though they are reporting some structures burned we do not know at this time if those were outbuildings like sheds or barns or homes. Fire on the ground is not necessarily a bad thing so keep the faith. Believe me, its houses. Most of the houses(not all) along the canyon in clear creek pines unit 9 have burnt to the ground. Guy Mauro has sent me many pictures in the last 12 hours and Ill wait for him to post them. My cabin in unit 8 was spared, Ive heard no cabins in 8 burned. It is starting to affect Mogollon ranch now. Not sure how they will fare. Heres one house that was Ron Greens family house. D8895C4B-0E91-4199-AD15-DE729A0DC316.jpeg I thought this fire was in 5A?

Below is a series of emails I exchanged with Commissioner Davis who has been noted by CAPAZ as being an ally. I reached out to all of the commissioners with a similar message to ensure they knew my thoughts on the matter. Commissioner Davis was the only one who responded. I will allow you to draw your own conclusions: Commissioner Davis, I am writing you to express my concern over an initiative that has begun to arise among the members of the Conserve and Protect AZ organization. Their initiative proposes to allocate special tags for auction and raffle to raise funds for education of the public regarding the contribution makes to conservation. I know that this a group with which you have had association, and I am grateful for any guidance you may have provided during the HSUS defense. While I whole-heartedly agree that such a fund is critical to the perpetuity of hunting, I could not disagree more with the mechanism for raising those funds. My concern has nothing to do with the organization, its members, or its purpose. Rather, I see that the use of tags in such a way clearly contradicts the North American Model. I understand that there are some tags being used in a similar way already through the HPC program, and I see the benefit that those tags have brought for wildlife but my question is; Where does the practice stop? First it was the Auction/Raffle tags, then it was the HPC, now it is CAPAZ. If the intent of tags is to simply raise as much money as possible, then we could certainly sell every tag to the highest bidder. But rather than go the way of Africa and Europe, it is my opinion that the responsibility for protecting our privilege of hunting and fishing lies with the sportsmen. Hunting and Fishing nationally is a $58 billion industry, certainly through other revenue streams we can gather enough money to protect the future of our lifestyle. I believe that there are a number of options available which have not been explored or vetted that do not require us to compromise the model under which our wildlife is managed. Out of respect to your time I will not list or detail some of the ideas that have been discussed among like-minded sportsmen, but should you want to explore that conversation I would be happy to provide some proposals. Thank you for your time and for your dedicated service to AZ's wildlife. Andrew Gillett Thanks for your email. The Commission has received no proposal for auction tags. Thank you, Kurt Davis Thanks for the response Mr. Commissioner. Have you received a proposal for the use of raffle or other special tags? It is my personal belief, and admittedly not the viewpoint of all sportsmen, that any special tags separates us further from the ideals of the North American Model that have benefitted wildlife in this country for more than a century. Further, it is also mathematically challenging to see how raffle tags would provide anywhere near the amount of funds required for education of the non-hunting public. If for instance 200 tags were to be assigned to this raffle, and they varied in desirability from premium to average, and if those tags more or less aligned with current seasons then I see the numbers shaking out roughly this way: 500 tickets per application (a limited number of tickets is part of the arrangement I have heard in meetings), at a cost of $5 per ticket, then that only raises $500k. That is only 25% of the cost that CAPAZ has suggested is required for the outreach. Instead the entire amount could be raised via other methods that do not require legislation. We have emailed a copy of this method to all of the commissioners. I am a concerned sportsmen who is here to help and willing to act, but I must express my total opposition to auction or raffle tags. Andrew Gillett No proposal. However, 500,000 would do substantial assistance for education. Earnest people have lots of ideas. The Commission hasn't done anything in my six years to harm the North American Model and I am sure wouldnt now. The current department Conserve and Protect effort is highly effective and it is my hope will grow more robust over time so that the second most urbanized state in the nation has an educated citizenry about the North American model and the power of how conservation is funded. Thx again, Kurt Davis I think every sportsman in the state would agree that educating the non-hunting community is necessary. We are all on the same page for that. However, decreasing opportunity for the general public and re-allocating those tags to be more accessible to those with more means is exactly the opposite of the North American Model. Sportsman need to bear the burden of educating those in our communities, but I feel strongly that tags is not the way to do it. Andrew Gillett I have never heard anyone proposing decreasing opportunities, tags,;etc...ever. kurt

You are late and all of this has been discussed in a number of other places, but I will do my best to try and answer your questions. I have read where people want to raise tag fees or create a habitat stamp. If they do that then G&F collects the money and they, by law, are not allowed to get involved in ballot initiatives or politics. The money raised by an auction or raffle tag system could not be used to fund a political fight either. It would be used to enhance the departments existing marketing campaign towards educating the non-hunting public. Any money raised through tag sales / auctions / raffles etc. must be returned to the department. The exact same thing can be accomplished with tags from a license fee increase, or a stamp etc. The money raised needs to be done by a separate group not directly affiliated with G&F. Once they raise the money then they have more flexibility in where the money is spent. Actually the opposite is what we probably need to accomplish. The goal is to raise funds that are earmarked for public education, and cannot e used in the general fund. So these dollars need to have less flexibility for spending rather than more. Much the same way that the HPC funds are allocated directly for habitat and cannot be used for other things. Regardless none of the money earned can be used for political purposes. Mostly I hear guys say they are against it but they offer no real solutions and who is going to organize it and manage it. Several viable options have been offered by community members and organized presentations have been delivered to CAPAZ, the commission and members of the general public who have expressed willingness to help. Pete's response was to thumb his nose, insult and argue with any proposal that didn't align with his personal agenda. Others members of CAPAZ have expressed interest in other options. Some have stated that they want to develop as many revenue streams as possible so accepting some of these ideas doesn't preclude still using tags as a mechanism. However, your comment that no one else is willing to do anything is lame, false and a cop out. If you were engaged and at the meetings and reading the other info that is available, you would know this. So don't let Pete fool you that everyone is apathetic so we have to use his plan or the world will end. Something that also needs to be considered is the more of the these auction/raffle tags available the less monetary value they have. The reason why they sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars is because there is only one auction tag and one raffle tag. If we try to action 20 high quality elk/deer/sheep tags the sales price will certainly be much lower. Basic economics of supply. When supply is kept very low but demand is high the price will be high. This point was discussed and is valid. The dept and commission already have concerns about devaluation of the existing commissioner tags due to collusion among buyers.

Yup, thats a good deal.

Year?

what has changed, as far as your perspective? I thought there was some solid ideas put on the table.Speaking for me personally, my perspective of the board has changed. I first thought they were all unified on the tag grab. Now I feel the majority are looking for legitimate ways to go forward. the lack of new blood is apparent because they have a tendency to fixate and focus on the hsus issue when the topic has changed to recruitment and retention. I agree that all of the board members have different objectives, but they all agree they need to raise money to pursue their ideas. As far as the HSUS fight, Pete is the one using that as a scare tactic to try and push his tag grab agenda. Appreciate all who have reached out and look forward to being part of the solution. PS - I agree mister Williams did a fine job moderating and many on the board helped keep the meeting on track and making sure folks got heard.

Happy to help. I apologize but I cant keep all the board members straight between real names and screen names etc. so I dont know if we spoke last night or not. Jim, Tracey and Eddie all have my contact info. Feel free to hit me up. I am traveling with my kid back east the next couple days so might be a little slow to respond. Dont take it personally.

Blake your survey data came across as very well informed. You reached more people in that survey than they have in weeks of outreach. I suggest emailing the results to the commissioners just as we are planning with the presentation.

Maybe 30 people in the room.

I dont trust Pete one bit. I think he showed his true cards when he started calling people he didnt even know as FOOLS. I spoke with several other board members and appreciated their thoughts, input and dialogue. I think most of them are very interested in coming up with as many ideas as possible. I think Pete is a snake and I think that he unwaveringly committed to getting tags. I dont think thats the case for everyone on that board.

Some good points, but one needs to use the broad-brush approach carefully. For example, not one of the groups in AZ makes a "profit" off the gift tags and neither does the game dept. Second, even those tags have been removed from the general draw over the years, the money raised has probably added more tags to the general draw for certain species because of projects and transplants. That's a win-win. A while back, there was a thread on another site about bighorn auction tags in the West. Tony Mandile, who once posted here on a regular basis, put up some very pertinent info on the program here in AZ from articles he did years ago. Another member of that site posted the positive aspects of what has gone on in Montana. I don't want to repost them here without permission, and in deference to Amanda, I won't post the site URL. Does this mean I'm for the present tag grab? Not necessarily. And I won't decide one way or another until I see the proposal actually fleshed out in its entirety. If it looks anything like the abomination in Utah, though, it's a non-starter for me. Buzz - Thanks for the input, you took the words right out of my mouth. This proposal simply doesnt align with the North American Model. TS - I do not believe anywhere that these special commissioners tags are allowed that they are sold for a Profit per se, all of them do support wildlife and conservation to some extent. The fact remains, we could certainly raise far more money if every tag was sold to the highest bidder. But thats not how the model works, look to Africa or Europe if youd like to see how turns out. I do have an idea for raising funds, perhaps for education or for the proverbial war chest political fund. Will post that later on a separate fund. Just a reminder, there is a meeting Monday at 6:30 at BPS. CAPAZ has said they will Not move forward with this if they do not have the support of the sportsmen, lets give them the chance to make good on that and show up to let them know our thoughts.